Competition idea

[Tom-3DT]

Here's an idea I am toying with, now its at very early stages and I havent even approached the involved parties but I thought some member feedback at this early stage would be good.

The initial plan :

We would have 10 competitions per year, 2 of them are big ones and last for 6 weeks (the rest will be the usual 1 month long) So a 1big comp will happen every 6 months.

Now this is the idea :-

The prize for this big comp will be something very special, what would be the best prize (within reason) we could supply. . well I think it would be a boxx workstation . .Ok ok calm down there is a kinda catch for this to work. The sponsorship return from a comp isnt worth Boxx giving us a workstation but im sure they would give a very good deal on it all things considered so 3DTotal will pay the rest. Now what 3DTotal get for this is that all of the content from the competitions is added to future CD collections as bonus material to help boost sales. This would apply to all 10 competitions and as a competitor you would have to agree to these terms (ie your work would be added to 3dtotal CDs and sold commercially for commercial use) I repeat it would just be bonus material and we would still make the CDs as we have always done but I think this bonus material would increase sales enough to pay for the workstation prizes and hopefull some nice runner up hardware prizes too (a graphics card for example)

Well as I said just an idea that I would like some feedback on.

Tom

[X_Dror]

sounds great! it will be really good for the forum if more competitions will be made (is it the right word?) !
lol, when i heard u might give the BOXX workstation i got all excited! :D
can u really do such a thing?

[Pitos]

sounds very cool!!!!

[Denis]

I think moste people wold not have any problems with that but maby there are some (pro's) and thay have a harder time giving out ther stuff to be sold.


but I think is't a very good idea and I hope you make it work.
keep up the good work 3dtotal and threedy you are great.

[Karmann]

hardware prizes would be wonderfull ( at least, maybe only one graphic card should be able to enhance the number of competitors ) About your idea of commercialising any work, it should be good to obtain an official agreement of every one who enter the futur competitions ( maybe something like a signature that could officialise the main competition entry and by the way avoid a lot of problems )
Anyway, anyhow, 6 competitions per year!!!! that sound's like it will be a great performance that makes 3D total the most amazing 3D dedicated site in the whole world ( if it's not done yet....)
Could you manage all this work?!!!
I think this is a great idea, I'm in!...but there are so many 3D killers around... I can't answer for them, I'm very interested about their opinion on this subject ?...

:cool:

[ido]

sounds very good Tom, we all can use a boxx workstation :D, btw I'm realy interested in making textures for the cd's (I sent you one a while back if you remember), is it still posible to do the test? please:)

[KingSomething]

I think its a ****** great idea although i have no problem with my work getting submitted onto the cds i dont seem to understand how you think that would increase the sales them would it just involve our textured models and scenes? would these be of use to everyone who bought them? do we sign all rights to the work to you/the buyers would it still be our work? (i hope i havent just spoilt the whole mood of this idea as i am actualy all for it i just think maybe if we all worked together (im sure many will be willing) to produce another high quality texture cd/s and produce a box set for example or maybe different tutorial cds (beginner intermediate advanced) (Max, Maya, XSI, Lightwave) that would bring in more sales. or what about a texture tutorial cd everyone saw how popular the material thread was may be tutorials about making some of the cool stuff on there and even include pre built ones on the cd aswell

[tcomputerchip]

Hey Tom,

Sorry, but I got a little carried away with the ideas. They just keep flowing.

Well, where to begin. I think 2 Major contests a year is great. The problem is keeping people motivated and focused. The best way to do this is schedule the BIG ones to have final entries due before College semesters begin.

Like this: School for Spring Semester usually starts around the end of Jan 30th and fall around Sep 9th. So back up about 3 months for those days and make the final deadline about 10 days before classes begin.

That way you get the people who are in school working on this stuff and the people who have the free time.

The other thing with major contests is that they should not be so complicated that people with intermediate skills can not produce the final image. Remember, most people challenging are students and some workers in the field and they only have one computer (not a render farm).

The big hitters should maybe be something very general. The reason for general ideas is because you want people produce top notch stuff by giving them a lot of flexibility. And the smaller competitions should be more focused on one type of skill (ie Modeling & Texturing, Animation, Character Design, Non-Organic Model Creation - like star fighters.

The Big Hitters should maybe consist of what you may have learned in the small competitions. Also, another strict guideline you should stress, no models from previous work can be used. This puts everyone on the same page. Even if they are the best modeler out there.


-------------------------

Ok, now, about experience that was nice with the contest I just finished at cgnetworks.com. First, the submitting of work was completely separate from the forums. Which is nice, people can view the entries in a separate location as well. Like this:

http://www.cgnetworks.com/alienware/viewentries.php

Second, each user that entered the contest was given a thread of there own to update there images. Like this:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=96951


And the last thing that is really nice about there contest handling is that each artist was also give another thread that just displayed there progress with thumbnails. Like this:



http://www.cgnetworks.com/alienware/viewentries.php?challenge_id=3&challenger=486


The reason I bring this up is because the last contest I entered (about 1 year ago) on this website I found was not as organized as cgnetworks.com. The voting was nice, but the organization of the contest before was all in the same thread.

Another idea for the prizes. Instead of Just a Grand Prize for the Big contest, there should be prizes for the top 5 or 10 entries and a Grand Prize.

Like say: position 5-10 Get 1 Textures CD from 3dtotal, and 4th place gets all three texture CD's (the new ones), and 3rd gets say all six texture CD's and 2nd gets something like all 6 CD's and Lightwave (or some other software like Photoshop cs)
and of course the Grand Prize is the a Computer, and maybe Textures, and maybe some 3d software like Max/Maya or even some compositing software like combustion.

Not sure on the company budget or willingness to up front those type of prizes. But, it will attract a lot of users. The other thing you may want to consider is publishing your own magazine or book that comes out say 2 times a year containing all the contest entries and there positions they received in the contests they entered and of course, the cover would be the Grand Prize entry (s) for that edition.

[KingSomething]

that magazine idea sounds cool you could have sections/colums from members of threedy about what they have been up to etc and have a different one each week. hhhhmmm we seem to be planning the invasion stratergies of 3d total. THERE TAKING OVER!!! AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH RUN FOR THE HILLS
(why do people say run for the hils when something bads going to happen? wont you just get tired and collapse?)

[FutureMan]

Maybe have something so that in order to recieve your prize you have to sign over the rights.

That way only the winners will sell the rights to their works, so even if you lose you don't lose your work too. Also this insures high quality work on the CD's to be sold because they would only have the best works, from the winners of the contests. Not to mention it would be an even greater incentive to compete because you actually have your work published and sold, rather than just having something that says you won the contest.

[Pedro Toledo]

Sounds good to me.

Don´t think its necessary to have a signature or stuffs like this.
It just needs an "I agree" button, just like any other electronic agreement. If you click it you join the threedy competition and by doing this you agree with all the terms of that.

I don´t think that just the winners should have their works on the CD´s. In my oppinion everybody who clicks the "I agree" button is compromissed to give their works. Although I think it is necessary to have all the credits and to be for non commercial use only.

This way it will have two good things about it, the prizes of course, and everybody´s work will reach a greater number of people interested in 3d artists (a good reason for the ones who didn´t win take place on the CD). Beside this I think it would be better for 3D Total to have all the works on the CD. There will be so many diferent people looking for so many diferent work. Sometimes you don´t like the winner but just love the 6th´s or 7th´s work. Who knows?
Maybe it could have a diferent section just for the winners, but i really think that everyone should take part of it.

That´s it.

Thanks Tom! Keep the good work!!!

[Drew Carey]

Hmmm...Well more contests will definitely be a good thing; it's good to see you have enthusiasm Tom! However I hope such a large number will be something that can be realistically managed. I don't know how difficult it to set these contests, but 10 a year is quite a bit. I just rather have a few really high quality contests with good prizes, than many lower quality. I'm sure you'll take care of that though, just remember that sometimes it's better to devote two months for one good contest then for two quick ones.
Just remember not to limit the contests too much in time.
As for your new idea, it sounds good; I doubt anyone would strongly object to handing their work away, so that shouldn't be much of a problem.
Keep it up!

Oh and I forgot about the prizes; Hardware would be GREAT!

[Knut]

I'd say this is a great idea Tom. Go for it :)

I dont think an "I agree" button is neccesary, as people should read the rules before they enter a competition. just remember to state it properly.

[Tom-3DT]

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far, some interesting points have been raised which I will now address and then still more feedback will be appreciated.

Could we cope with the amount of work 10 anual contents would create? Well there is another side to this idea too in that the extra revenue your submissions create on the CDs will be paying for a member of staff to do all the work. Currently all threedy staff are voluntary but this amount of work will need to be a proper job. Mike would have first choice on this possition but I have to discuss it further with him first. Hopefully this would also make people who didnt win prizes feel better about the whole thing knowing there work and and money it generated went towards a superior organization as well as prizes.

Could we afford it? Well again more info is needed but in theory it sounds good, we would need more than the winners submissions though, more like the top 70% of entries and they would have to agree that they could used for commercial use too if they were on the CDs.

I like the ideas put forward by 'tcomputerchip' with regards to the big comps use knowledge gained in the small ones and that a better system is needed throughout the comp. This would make it better for competitors and easy on organisers if we improve the workflow, and the book idea is very good too, i will be giving that one some thought.

I think ive covered most points raised, thanks very much to all for giving the thumbs up, please continue to say more :)

Tom

[anhon]

Having 10 low-stress competitions a year and two holy-smokes-I-want-that-workstation comps is a great idea. These comps are alot like school projects in a way, in that you should be in them to test your skills and improve your methods, not just grubbing for prizes.


As for copyright worries and such, i dont know much about that. My information ethics class last year was almost infinitely boring so i didnt retain any of the info, much of which would have been useful now. ah well.

I for one wouldn't mind letting go of a good creation, because there are always more rattling around in my noggin. Trading an idea for some less than profitable prizes isn't good business, but we're in the art business, not the business business.

It's our power as artists to make admirable creations for the world to see. However the legal logistics work out, it's the props you get more than the prizes that make these competitions worthwhile. Tho I got exactly zero props from my first comp entry, I'm not the least bit discouraged. (but really, not a peep from anyone during the whole comp??? do i suck that much???)
I learned so much of real value to me that I'll do it again and again. (with less procrastination)

Thanks 3Dtotal Crew for the opportunity!


That being said, let's get rolling with the first of the 1-month Comps!

[KingSomething]

although i stil dont understand how adding our submissions to the cds would increase the sales as mentioned in my earlyier reply along with some other questions and suggestions.

would the competitons be open for all-all the time i.e say if some superior modeler with 3000 years of experience comes in and wins every comp and gets him self a network of BOXX pcs with every single new riders book and all 3dtotal texture cds with every one elses submitted work on each one he's got alot?

maybe winners of one huge comp must miss out the next comp but can re enter after that

[anhon]

maybe winners of one huge comp must miss out the next comp but can re enter after that


no handicaps. if you win your second boxx workstation, give it to someone, but competition is about pushing yourseld.

[Tom-3DT]

Well King put it this way, we are going to release a Texture CD for humans and creatures, in fact its 75% done and has some superb hand painted texture created by 5 freelance artists, I think it well sell very well anyway but it would sell better if it included 20 top quality human character models and 20 creature models. This is an example of how things would work, does it make more sense now?

I think we will also develop the voting system more too, to include indivual marks for different aspects, so this 'super experienced modeler' you mention may not win on the 'idea/creative' mark each time. This said we will have to consider a rule about entering the big comps to win again if you already have a boxx under your belt . . (cos two boxxes might not fit in your underpants ;))

Tom

[Andy_k-3DT]

a couple of thoughts,

1, by submitting your work to either the gallery or the forums you agree to 3D Total to publish, use as they see fit, whether it be on teh forums or on future CD collections

2, rather than just include the winning image/scene etc get the prize winners to write a tutorial on how the image was done and include those on the CDs - get an "exclusive" rights deal so that they can't be published anywhere else and you have your sales boost :)

3, I still think that rather than having a "big competition" for a workstation that it should be given to the best render/image/animation etc that's posted on the forums over the year. Not only would that take some of the pressure off organising but it would also encourage people to post a higher standard of work throughout the year

4, getting hold of the prizes isn't too much of a pain as we can usually pull a couple of strings. Keeping up the quality of them may prove awkward after a while - we can only hit the companies so many times before they get tired of it :)

Andy

[Tom-3DT]

Thanks for the suggestions Andy,

I dont think we can make the rule that everything posted in the forums can be published by 3DTotal, I want to keep this a competition thing only.

I like the winner tutorial idea, that's a good one and we could really use those on the 3DTotal website and the CDs.

With regards to your idea for the best render throughout the year posted in any forums, it is nice, but this whole deal needs the structure of the competitions to work. It needs boxx to see there sponsorship plastered over all the competition pages, it needs people entering and knowing in return that their work will be used by 3DTotal and it needs us to be able to collect the entries and also give some direction to them by writing briefs that do both jobs of making great competitions and provide us with some general content that we need, the human models I mentioned earlier as an example. If all this spills out from the competitions and just into all the forums in general we will loose the structure that I believe we really need for it to work.

Hope this makes sense

Tom

[Cedric]

all the things which were said here sound really good! i really really love this tutorial idea.

And i m with Pedro Toledo for the "i agree" button. so everything is clear for all the people who are entering a comp.

[KingSomething]

cheers mate that clears things up alot cheers mate i wasnt too sure if you were just going to whack the models onto the current cds but the human and creature one sounds cool should be a good adittion to the other 3 i have,

what happens once another contest is over would these get added to the cd aswell or would there be another cd out to compliment the contest like industrial etc.

i also think a shader tutorial cd would be a good adtition to the set which would incluse instructions and samples of shaders like the thread that went on not too long ago.

[Tom-3DT]

Hey King, Im glad you have bought up these points, Its all clear in my mind and now I can see that you all arn't telephathic ;), so I will explain more.

I have quite a few ideas for future CDs ranging from ancient tribes and civilizations to alien worlds. This gives way to loads of contest ideas, which we will always add a certain twists to in the brief to make more interesting.

I dont think we will ever add content to a CD once it has been released so the comps will always be geared towards future CDs in the pipeline.

Suggestions for texture CD collections are most welcome too :)

Thanks

Tom

[mat]

at the risk of upsetting all the patriotic septic tanks out there, if we do run this comp idea can we remember that this website is truly internationational and not tailor the big comp deadlines to just the american schooling system. everyone has their own deadlines to meet and so to aim the big comps to fall during american school holidyas would be a little bias.

on a different point, the most straight forward way around the "use of others work" problem would be to set up a release form like student film makers use to secure the services of their cast, this would be done simpliest by having a pdf contestants print out, sign and fax back to threddy HQ (no form - can still compete in the comp, just cant win a prize). the other solution would be to run the form electronically like the disclaimer and registry forms filled out when installing new software (no form - can still compete in the comp, just cant win a prize)

just my thoughts on the subject


mat

[KingSomething]

I always thought 3D Total was a british site, anyway i see your point and there should be some way to work around the deadline dates to suit all

[Andy_k-3DT]

"there should be some way to work around the deadline dates to suit all"

one of the weird things about deadlines in the "real world" is that they only ever suit the person setting them.

to generate some idea of workflow and give some experience which is always the aim of any competition, then as far as I can see a deadline is a deadline and you arrange your time to meet it.

I'm not being pedantic, but when somebody gives me a deadline I either meet it or miss out on getting paid :)

Nobody said it was meant to be easy.

Andy

[tcomputerchip]

The idea of time came to mind just because of the last competition I entered. I was just suggesting a strategic time, weather the site is British or not. That makes no difference. Most school systems have some sort of break during the holiday season in the winter times. That's why the competition on cgnetworks had over 1500 entrants. They too are an international website.

I was asked by Tom to supply a note as to why there competition is so successful. So I gave everyone a bit of insight of how the competition ran and gave my thoughts to as when the time should be scheduled.

No contest is convenient in 1 month’s time, that's why I recommend a 3 month time period. That way people can plan as needed.

Plus, even though this is an international site, it does not mean you can't schedule the contests around specific time periods to maximize your user base. If you have a contest in March and you have 300 entries and then you have a contest in December and you have 1500 entries, I would say that you have a better chance of more exposure with 1500 than 300.

My overall recommendation find the best time for maximum entries. And if it ends up being schedule around America, Japanese, British, or Australian school system, then so be it.

[Eternal10k]

I totally agree with the idea, and about copyrigths well that can easyly solved, just put in the rules that our work will be used on the cd as we still retain the main rights and the buyer use it for non-comercial purposes y don't see a problem, and that everyone that enters the contest is bind by the rules (obviously), personally i think that's if we appear on the credits that's a wonderfull way of advertising ourselves, and at the same time helping the comunity with the extra income that in the end will be spent on us..

on the other hand, i've participated on the fps character contest, im a bit tired so i would advice that the little contest would be at least within a little more timespan about 8 small contest and the 2 big ones, to ensure a good amount of contestants enter each of em... but then is only my opinion...

[geoMan]

nice ideas...

tom, u know i am good at textures.....i will do anything if u want me to do for 3dtotal , anything....i dont need any return from u....but i like to do as much work as i can for 3dtotal...the thing that actually made me into 3d.... providing the best atmosphere for sharing ideas....

i have an idea...

why not have a competition on making shaders....like....people will have to make a few breath-taking shaders.....then , those shaders can be used for tuts, and libraries whatever......
and idont think we need any signed agreement for helping Tom! do we?

THUMBS UP! i am ready!

[geoMan]

if u are going to have such awards for the comps...man, i am going to spend mny blood, sweat and tears for this coz i havent seen a BOXX yet and i dont have a graphics card....
i'll literally get mad after it!:D

[Barks]

Sounds like a great idea. I think people would really respond to a comp that was 6 months long....it would give everyone a chance to put in something really good.

[TerianSilva]

yo, great stuff... and I recommend an automated contest system like cgnetworks use it. It can save a lot of work and it keeps the contest transparent.

[Goig!]

Six months seems exesive to me, a 6 week big-whooping competition sounds reasonable; if it spans for too long it would be quite a nightmare from a logistics point of view; I mean, the last competitions have already devoloped into behemoth threads where is quite difficult to keep track of what´s going on, who is in and doing what.

[Emperor]

I think the idea is great as it is so not really much to ad there except on one count.

The winners tutorial and interview would be cool. Kind of a small spotlight with the tutorial. This however I'd make totally volouneeraly so noone is forced into revealing things about them theny don't really want to. But I bet most of us wouldnt mind an dinterview...if ppla are at all interested in such things. I always am curious about hearing the most bizzare ways ppl come into contact with arts :)

[Fizzy]

Tom,
Have you checked out the www.3dluvr.com website? They too run competitions but have a very neat little ending tribute. The winner writes a "making of" their scene once it wins. I find that these write-ups are usually pretty informative, even if they are only a couple of sentences. I guess the problem is getting the artist to actually write something in time. (check out their contest.3dluvr.com section, and the "competition rules" section is pretty comprehensive - I'll point you to the end bits about voting, and requirements to claim prizes).

I thinks these little featurettes could be worked out into tutorials to be included on the CDs. The onus to actually write the tutorial would have to fall on someone, and I'm not sure a lot of artists would be keen on (or good at) writing one. It takes a certain skill and dedication to write those things and a lot of people just won't have the time; however, I think they would be a good thing to add.

[sgaidhane]

Hi Tom,

Is there any deadline for submitint 2D concept.

Shankar

[asfalton]

sounds very cool...lol I think...smashing...goo good

[JHarford]

i couldnt handle a 6 monther !!!!!!! that would be a beast of a comp ,
the droid one is a litle long in fact. but fine,

i like the 6 small comps and 2 big ones a year plan

[Andy_k-3DT]

I tend to agree there cgstripe. I think that a 6 month contest is overkill and far too long.

Peoples best ideas will be posted in the first couple of weeks, finished stuff within next couple of weeks then a five month wait to find out whether or not you've won :)

Andy

[JHarford]

hehe noone wants that . :P .
if you can get the funding behind 2 a year boxx type competitions then that would be great,
to supplement that , 6 month long contests. or even 3 weekers. with prizes such as the fantastic texture cd's or books.

[Andy_k-3DT]

we've already got the next comp prize lined up and it's a cracker!!!!

Once this one is out the way Tom will be posting details.

Andy