Whoops: Still Life: Revenge (redux)

[Marcia]

Accidentally put this in Organic WIPs yesterday. I'm currently working on a black widow spider to go in the negative space up near the bottles, to balance out the composition and plan to add a few more envelopes. Any other crits or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

http://www.pbase.com/image/26556160/original.jpg

[Vinc3]

thats veryyy cool, and veryyyyyyy scary! i dunno if that picture gave me the shivers, or if it was because im eating ice cream but...still! :S

[arthoz]

i think the hair is too red, its leads me away from the "good stuff", and i dont know if adding more letter/envelopes are a good thing, good your adding that spider as well, think that would add a lot if used properly.

[Marcia]

Thanks for your input, guys. :)

@Vinc3: Glad you find it creepy; that's the atmosphere I'm going for. :)

@Arthoz, I've decided to take your advice and not add more envelopes, and am also working on the hair color so it integrates better with the scene.

I've added the spider, but it didn't cast a visible shadow with the original lighting set-up, so I'm working on changing the angle of light, which is also altering the composition somewhat. I hope to have another shot to post in the next day or so.

[Thahackboy]

Great work!
I like the texuters:cool:

[Marcia]

Update: Fixed the doll's hair, added the spider, changed the angle of light to make the shadows longer and more prominent, made minor changes to some of the other textures.

http://www.pbase.com/image/26634227/original.jpg

[mmiller]

Nice piece
Your textures are particularly well done.

But, I kind of like the first version better.
The second one does have some nice qualities though.

Might be fun to load them both up into seperate levels in pshop and play them against each other.

scratch that, I see you moved some stuff around ;)
Mark

[3Dan]

The second img has more depth, altho you could make the tabletop a bit more illuminated to show the projected shadows. I'd rate it a fiver if you work thoroughly on that spider which looks misplaced in the scene atm.
The textures are really outstanding.

[Marcia]

Thanks, Dan. I can bring up the mid-tones and highlights a bit, which should address the lighting concern.

Could you be more specific about what you mean by working thoroughly on the spider, so I can improve it? The model is pretty fully articulated and I studied and tried to duplicate a portion of the walk cycle (which, unfortunately, isn't obvious from this angle). I've got to go out, but I'll post some wires when I get back.

I'm pretty committed to making this a fiver. ;) Thanks for your advice.

[Marcia]

Here's the black widow model. I used photo references when creating it, but there was no single photo that showed everything in detail, so there may be some inaccuracies, although I tried to avoid them. What can I do to make it better?

http://www.pbase.com/image/26642270/original.jpg

[Phynius Gauge]

Great scene. Something about the renders makes them seem a little bit low quality to me. I hate spiders :) .

[3Dan]

Well the spider is artfully modeled to the tiniest detail but i don't think it belongs in the scene. Perhaps it's the bluish tone that makes it unreal, like a plastic replica.

[Marcia]

@Phynius Gauge: People have been commenting on that, so I'll be sure to fix it. The problem is fractal noise, the dust textures in the scene. I'm going to try removing it from the paper stuff and pencil, see if I can keep the aged feeling without triggering crits about texture inconsistency. Thanks for letting me know.

BTW, I hate spiders, too... especially poisonous spiders. The research and modeling literally made me feel queazy. LOL.

@Dan: Oh, okay... I see what you mean. I really want to keep the spider though; I think it helps balance the composition. Symbolically, it's supposed to represent revenge taken by the spirit of the woman the writer killed (symbolized by the ****** voodoo doll). Notice he hasn't been around to finish his novel. Sort of weird, I know. ;)

The blue I can fix. I didn't want to use pure black because then it would look like a hole in the desk, so I added a layer of blue and a layer of dark magenta and mixed them all together to add richness. The texture looks black until you get a light on it. Also, I made the specular highlight light blue, which probably compounds the problem. I wondered if people would find that objectionable, so I appreciate your sharp observation. Maybe I'll make it a tiny bit smaller, too. See if that helps integrate it into the scene better.

[Marcia]

Update: I brightened the image some and made the spider about 30% smaller and black. I also futzed around with the desk texture, and now think it's too saturated, plus some of the dust seems messed up. Does it look that way to anyone else? C&C?

http://www.pbase.com/image/26729856/original.jpg

[claWda]

you know what, that first image is great, second is worse, third is just overworked

when you have something good, LEAVE IT BE!

if you still have the first version, take it into photoshop and just add a little contrast, bring down the grain, and use the current haircolor and your image is done

when your lighting is as dramatic as the last image, the whole meaning and impact of the motive is gone, because it distracts from the actual content of the image.

great work anyhow, it's your decision but I think you should go back

[Marcia]

LOL. I thought I was making it worse, too. I think I'm trying to reconcile too many conflicting suggestions...


It's too cluttered
The voodoo doll is out of place
Give it some dust
The dust makes the render look low quality
I can't read the papers
I can't tell that the texture on the desk is dust
It needs something near the bottles in that blank space
The spider doesn't work
The spider is great
The spider is too blue
I can't see the spider
The image is too dark
It needs more light on the table
Go back to the original lighting
Go back to the original layout
The doll needs blood on it
The knife should be shinier
Make the pencil point at the doll's head
the doll's hair is too silly, make it darker
I liked the orange hair better

and my all-time favorite:

The doll should look like the dog chewed it, then the image would be perfect.


Don't get me wrong. I very much appreciate the help I've been getting with this, and I definitely think it's improved the image tremendously. But now I think I'm beginning to over-tweak... so, one more time... let's see if I can get this next one right, because I'm getting tired of looking at it. ;)

[mmiller]

Yep
Your thinking to hard ;)
And I still like the first one best
I think it is creepier than the others.
The darker ones are gloomier I guess.

well, sounds like you are overloaded with suggestions right now.
Sometimes just walking away for a couple days helps.
then there's the old mirror trick.
Mark

[Marcia]

Update... revised the lighting to more closely match the first upload, revised the knife textures, revised the desktop (again), adjusted some dust textures, redid some of the screw textures... that's about it, I guess.

http://www.pbase.com/image/26769752/original.jpg

[Marcia]

And three progressively darker versions:

Do any of these look right? Too dark, too light?

(Images Removed)

[mmiller]

Pretty subtle
But, I'd go with either of the first two.
It looks great

about the spider
I don't think it looks bad.
But it does feel "placed"
hmmm ... not sure how to say it.
posed maybe?

perhaps if you moved it so that it doesn't fit so cleanly in that corner of the paper
or - you might want to try and move the legs around to make it look a little less regular.

well, it's not a big thing
personaly, I'd say your done ;)
mark

[claWda]

remove the spider man, it looks like a fillout, it's a bit cliche as well so I would say you remove that

other than that, I can't really tell ANY difference between the images above, all look great, I'd say your done now, great work

[legato]

i like the 2nd image on your last post...about the spider IMO either u loose it or u add some webs to your scene...

[Marcia]

The spider stays. :mad: LOL.

Even if it's cliché, it's an important compositional element. Without the spider, two things happen: 1) The composition becomes seriously unbalanced and weighted toward the lower left corner, with a large amount of dead space in the upper right corner and 2) The pencil leads the viewer's eye out of the image, instead of in a loop back to the doll. So if I got rid of it, I'd have to add and rearrange something else which would change the whole picture.

The spider webs aren't so important because I don't necessarily want to create the impression that the spider lives there or that it's part of the decay, but that it's a dynamic element related to the theme of the picture. Symbolically, it's tied to the stabbed voodoo doll, sort of like male violence vs. female violence. You know, the female black widow kills the male after they have sex (am I allowed to say that here?).

But I do agree that it looks awfully static the way it's posed now. There's not enough variation in the position of the legs from overhead, and it doesn't give the impression of movement... so I'll work on that. Hopefully everyone will find the revised spider less problematic in the image, although I'm not sure people ever completely reach concensus on anything. :dunno:

[claWda]

hey marcia, relax! listen, you're image is VERY GOOD, only reason you're getting these kind of crits is because it's already good and we are nitpicking, that's all...

about the balance issue, I totally understand it'll get unabalanced and I also see why you chose to put something organic there like a spider since the whole scene is basically filled with inorganic stuff...even if it makes no sense, you could add two leaves or something there, it'll add color and will make you ponder a bit, try that, or maybe put a glass of water there?

[3Dan]

Don't let the spider be such a big issue on the composition. Just position it on the tabletop so it's not so obvious - if it's really crucial in the context.
Anyways it's a fiver.;)

[Marcia]

I'm relaxed, I'm relaxed. :o

I was just trying to explain why I was keeping the spider, since it seems to be the main sticking point. Yeah, the leaves are a good idea, and I thought about adding them, especially since the shadow shows that the windows are broken... but at this point I really just want to finish this up because I have so many new ideas I'm dying (haha) to get to. And I can't set this aside until it's done...

... or I'll go... insane...

...anyway, I did revise the spider slightly, so one more render should do it.

Thanks for the 5, Dan. Can I go on the front page? :roll:

And thanks everyone, for all the help. I really value your input.

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Marcia
The spider stays. :mad: LOL.
Hopefully everyone will find the revised spider less problematic in the image, although I'm not sure people ever completely reach concensus on anything. :dunno:

Consensus ?!
Your looking for a consensus?
No wonder your getting frustrated ;)

I don't think art is supposed to work like that
Mark

[Marcia]

No, no, uh-uh. I'm not looking for concensus; I was just acknowledging that we'd never all agree on the spider issue. It's no big deal; I just want to get on to other projects. :)

[Marcia]

Okay... last change... a smaller, repositioned, less obtrusive spider... everything else is more or less the same.

http://www.pbase.com/image/26797596/original.jpg

[mmiller]

Yes
I think what you have done with the spider works perfectly.
very nice :cool:
Congrats
Mark

[Marcia]

Thanks, Mark. :) I'm gonna make that spider my avatar. hehheh.