Character: Natalie (This will be a laaaarge project)

[bobpuls]

I think, you need to tweak a head, little bit. It looks like a box to me. Especially the top, of a head. Human head never looks like this. And cheek-bones need to be more visible.
Send some shots from isometric view.

[Phynius Gauge]

One thing that may improve the look of the head is making the lips a bit more full, and shapely. The nose could use some work as well. But everything else is working very well :) .

[Woody]

Here's what I've been doing with shag. I will probably tweak it a little more, but tell me what do you think of the eyebrows and eyelids.

Btw, she's not textured yet, I just changed the lighting and put an orange color to the skin.

[JDPCreations]

Ok, now that I see the eyes with lashes and brows it helps me see the problem. The eyes are shaped a tad off and a tad too big.

I also circled the area that will give this head away as 3d immediately... The ears. I think you said you were going to cover them with hair, but such a detailed model deserves to be perfect. I would recommend going back and smoothing out the inner ear area.

Maybe make a few different eye shapes/sizes and post them for us to pick?

Love the hair so fair, looks realistic.

[WebWolf]

Hi,
first of all: amazing work, above all the clothing, but here some details, I noticed:
The neck is too short, it looks as if she pulls the shoulders up. I think, the jaw is a little too cubic. The whole head is too cubic.
And the back is way to flat, add more details.
Some time ago I modeled a cartoony character. Here is a view from the back to show you what I meant.

[Dragonkiss]

hello woody!

i've seen somewhere that you have some problem with shag hair, you have a message that appears and crash, i have exactly the same problem with my girl and i don't know what to do, i try many thing like convert the hair as an edit mesh, but i think the geometry is too important, to render that or convert the hair as a edit mesh, at least for my computer maybe it's possible with a stronger machine, so i gave up shag hair for a little while and try to find another solution for her hair, i found several method to creat hair with out shag hair may be yuo should try this:
http://www.ibmr.net/Ornatrix/index.php

and his one maybe too:

http://www.max3dstuff.com/
but of course if you found out the reason why shag hair crash, let me know, i'm interested
see ya
Ps: still nice work, keep it up...:D

[Woody]

First I want to finish with the hair, cause if I'm always tweaking and tweaking the head I will never advance, and the I will see what I can change, but thanks for the comments anyway, I'm not ignoring them.

Dragonkiss -> I'm really worried about this. I decided for shag and not ornatrix cause ornatrix is a beta yet and I thought there can be bugs and crashes... and now shag crashes too ¬¬'... I don't think the problem is the computer, cause mine is less than a year old, and was one of the bests when I bought it. I've been doing some tests and tends to crash when it has much things to calculate. The more density and lenght of hair and quality of shadows, the more it crashes. It seems that if I separate the hair in lots of zones with it's own "shag: hair" effect this will not happen, but I don't know if it will crash too with 20 or 30 zones.

[L10N]

got nothing to say...

your skills are lightyears aheadd of mine :D

oh, woody, since u are using shag hair, can you help me? I can't make shag:fur be affected by gravity nor wind.. is there somekind of secret formula for that?

[Haaibo]

its a great model, very good work
uhm, your lips are way, to flat tho...... that and perhaps pull the chin forward a smidgen

[Woody]

L10N -> I'm sorry, but I did not experimented with the shag dynamics. But I think all the parameters are in the dynamic rollout of shag, so maybe playing with that you find what's wrong.

Dragonkiss -> For the moment shag is being stable and didn't crashed more... I'm just trying to divide all the hair in diferent zones with diferent "shag: hair" effects, so maybe it's the key to avoid crashing.

[hells angel]

hey woody...love the job.......been watchin silently for quite a while now..:)..
i used shag hair too for my character..(and my whole character was covered with hair!!!).....it crashed a few times on my side too...still does....but what i figured out was that this happens only when u have lights in the scene..(when shadows are on)....so if it crashes....try changin the position of lights very little(very very little) and it then doesnt crash......just a hunch since it worked for me.....all the best......hope to see more:)

[Woody]

Come on!!! The solution is as simple as moving a little a light???!!! :D :D :D I love that plugin!!! Thanks, hells angel. It reminds me of brazil... sometimes GI didn't work for me, and the solution is as simple as adding 1 photon to the light.

[ThinkTank]

I've just spent 30 minutes going through the entire topic, and I can say with out a doubt its F***ing amazing! well done! I was soooo desapointed when I came to the end and realized you hadn't finished it! I wanna see more!! more! more! Love it!

well done m8!!!!!!

[Jo3]

hey dewd this model roxxxxx i love all tghe details the clothes( well like it better without clothes ;) )
btw whats the gurl that ur modelin\s full name ???? :D

[Woody]

Thanks for the kind words!!

Jo3 -> I'm sorry, but I don't now her real name. I found her with 3 or 4 diferent names, and I supose none of them is her real name. Natalie is one of that names, for example.

Now I will be 3 or 4 days out, but I will try to show and update when I will be back.

[Woody]

I had time to finish this before going out. Ok, here's an update... of the head... I was planing to do first the hair but comparing two images with photoshop I saw big diferences between the refs and my model and reworked on it... ANOOOOOOTHEEEEER time... But this will be the last (I've said this so many time that it has no sense...), now I see her really human and seemed to the references. I know that maybe the way the ears enters in the head can be done better, but it will be covered with hair and I've lost too much time with it.

This are just some fast renders. Oh, and I've rigged the eyes, just for fun. :p

[nico3d]

wow, it's amazing how a subtle thing like moving the eyes instantly brought life and expression to her !!

Don't leave woody, keep working and show us more :p

[Argalius]

Oh, and I've rigged the eyes, just for fun.
I see the word rigging everywhere, what is it exactly?

Anyway looks good Woody, but please, give her her hair as soon as possible, hair is sooo sexy ;)

[Dragonkiss]

hey woody still very nice... i like it...which method did you use to make her eyes move..?

[shiroii]

Woody, nice job! Keep it going man it looks soooo awsome, can't wait to see some hair, too bad I'll have to wait for that :(

Originally posted by Argalius
I see the word rigging everywhere, what is it exactly?


:eek: You seriously don't know??? Here it goes!

Rigging is making the skeleton of your character. So say you modeled a leg. You woud want to animate it, right? Instead of moving the vertices one by one and key their channels, you'll make some joints and bind the skin to the bones.
So you start with a joint in the hip to the knee-->ankle-->heel-->ball-->toe You've know got a chain of joints. You've got a choice now:"Am I gonna use FK, or IK?" FK means "forward kinematics", which basically means that if you would want to move the foot up, you'd rotate the hip, rotate the knee and then rotate the ankle. Sometimes this can be a bit too much, specially with the legs, so you could use IK. IK is a node which makes a connection between joints. If you'd make an IK from the hip to the ankle, you'd make a connection between them. What you get is a really nice "IK handle" You don't have to rotate the joints anymore, you can just translate the IK handle!!! When you move the handle, which is located at the anke, the knee and hip will adjust to where you move it. So if you'd move the handle up, the hip and knee would rotate so that it looks like you're pulling your leg up. Of course this is not enough and you want more, so you make more connections and then parent them to a controler. This is just a NURBS curve or any object you want which controls all the handles. When you get more advanced you could add custom attributes like a "foot roll" of a "toe rotate X" and you could then control the foot joints with the foot roll attribute.

The whole process of putting in joints(bones), linking them up, making controlers, attributes etc is called "rigging"

The process of binding the joints to the skin and weigthing it so it deforms nice is called skinning/binding

Hope this helped ;)

-shiroii

[Dridon]

This is AWESOME!!! OMG iam speachless. How many polies does it have?

[Argalius]

@shiroii: Ok thanks man. I didn't know it had something to do with the bones and stuff. I never heard of rigging ;)

[FireJin3]

Pretty awesome model, nice modelling, I should exaggerate more.

[Woody]

Hey, I'm back from my miniholidays. Thanks for the comments, and don't worry, now all my efforts will be focused on her hair.

Argalius -> I will only add that sometimes rigging can be stressing. Now if I link something more to my actual rigging it crashes... :crazy:

Dragonkiss -> The same as in max rigging tutorial. Two controls, one for each eye with a look at constrain, and they are linked to a third one that move the 2 eyes at the same time.

IceQube -> With no meshsmooth and with all the clothes, a little less than 40000 faces... and with meshsmooth, too much. :p

[blankslatejoe]

any updates? this project is coming a long VERY nicely

[Woody]

Not yet, but I hope to do it soon. Now I have less time to work as in august, but I'm doing her hair and I want to have something more or less advanced before posting.

[Woody]

Here are my first steps with the hair. She will have a complex braid where the hair will go down, then up to where the braid start and finally down another time. For the moment this is just the hair before starting the braid. In some parts you can see the head through the hair, but I will solve it painting that head part with a hair texture, cause I want to save memory this way.

I will really apreciate comments about the hair, I want to know if I'm going in the correct direction or not, what do you think???

[Argalius]

Give her long wavey hair, that's much sexier. ;)

[Dragonkiss]

hello woody,

so as i can see the hair making start :D i think it's a good start so far, maybe try to put more specular in the hair shader and some volume too i think they are to stretch but u can let it like this i know some girl who do that...:) i think it's a matter of taste...continue like this u r on the good way....

i post for u a little pic of mike nash who did the best hair cut and hair shader i ever seen for u to have an idea...his hair cut is in your style....

[shiroii]

That's amazingly done, it looks so goooooood ^_______^ too bad it isn't woody's :D

[Avatar-3DT]

The hair example is awsome! Maybe Dragonkiss will share his secret with us.

[hpslashluvr]

i believe a user named kravit on cgtalk.com who did the hair (unless that is your other sn dragonkiss, then i'm sorry hehe oops) and has an explanation somewhere in his thread

also looks similar to this hair (w/o the braid of course) made with ornatrix

http://www.ibmr.net/Ornatrix/gallery/3.jpg

my only crit so far would be that it would be more natural for the hair to "poof out" a bit...it takes some skill and hair gel to get it that tight along the head

[Ultimate Ronnie]

this model has looked good from day 1 although i don't think i've said anything about it... and congrats on over 38000 views

[Dragonkiss]

hello there,

if you pay attention to what i wrote when i post this hair exemple, I DID NOT do this model with this amazing hair, cut it's from Mike Nash, i would never ever dare to say that it's my work!!! i just post that for Woody to have an idea of what he can do....but i do know how this was made because i asked him how he did that...so just to know:
you need to do that:
- 2 Month of work (that's the time he spend on it)
- over 2500 splines (model hair..yes made with shag hair)
- a little plugin call Layers [x] interface (but you can do with out it's just to help, to make it more "clean"
- a lot of patience
- and a good and strong computer to help Max to not crash!!!

that's it...
see ya...

[hpslashluvr]

hehe that's what i read, dragonkiss, i just didn't want to offend you in case this was like a pseudonym or something...

anyhow woody you should really update faster ;) jk

[Woody]

Yes, I've seen this two hairs on cgtalk. What I'm doing is something symilar to what hpslashluvr posted, but with longer hair so the braid will be bigger. I talked with Mike Nash too, and more or less he tell me the same, but I don't know how he did it... I'm having LOTS of problems to make the hair grow as I want and LOTS of stability problems with shag, too... And I don't want to spend 2 months on the hair, cause I'm trying not to make this eternal :(.

What I'm gonna do now is to make the braid and when finished I will see if I can add more detail or if my computer crashes. And I probably can try playing with the shader and the lighting to make it look better.

[Woody]

I've done the braid. I think the braid is ok, what do you think??? (Just the shape, not the shader nor the lighting). Now I will go back the hair over her head to tweak it, and also I will change the shader.

[Jason-Lavoie]

looks cool man.. :)

[hpslashluvr]

awesome hair, what color is it going to be? dark brown?

i wish i had shag:(

[shiroii]

Ooooh, looks very nice! ^.^ From what I've heard shag hair/fur is quite a hard to master plug-in so respect man!

[dhruvsm]

nice hair....how did u made that...i mean the way...???...it's looking great........hope to see an update soon...and also the 3/4 th view...keep it up...

[shiroii]

:eek: dhruvsm , hpslashluvr O_o looks kinda the same :D When I saw who posted last I actually thought hpslashluvr changed her name :)

[RKgreen]

It seems to me that the nose is not correctly made.
Bright example:

[hpslashluvr]

what's this about me?

anyhow RKgreen, Woody's probably sick and tired of people telling him his nose is wrong haha :p...look at the last five billion pages...

is it possible to change the shape of the nose after doing all the rigging or whatever? i don't know anything about this

[Woody]

Thanks for the comments.

About shag, for me it's being REALLY dificult to make the hair look as I want or to get the right direction... I supose with lot of practice it will be easier, but anyway, I think the have to add some tools cause actually is too dificult to create hair this way.

dhruvsm -> The system is simple, just adding more and more control hairs trying to make the hair go in the direction you want, but I think shag has it's own inteligence and makes the hair grow as it wants... Really there's nothing special to create it, just using lots of control hairs till the shape is ok (actually I have about 300 but it seems I will need much more).

RKgreen -> That nose looks a little as mine :D. For me, comparing with the references, Natalie's nose is ok. I know it looks simple as it has low resolution, but in the images seems this way.

hpslashluvr -> The hair color will be as in the references, a really dark brown... that means it will be black except for the more lighted parts that will be a liiiiittle brown...
Actually I can change anything of her head with "no problems", but not on her body. Actually the whole head is only afected by the same bone, so I can change the vertexs and it works, but depending on what I change I will have to tweak the hair to adapt it. But when I start with the facial rigging it will be no point back, cause I will use lots of bones and moving vertexs would cause strange results for sure. And the same for the body, I can change nothing on it cause there are lots of bones afecting the body and lots of morphs, so the body have to be closed.

[ThinkTank]

looks great mate, the nose looks fine!!!!!! the hair is getting on nicely at the moment the hair still looks slightly, errr i dunno solid? only needs a little more work to it and your there! tell me.. when you start animating her, will the hair bounce occordinally?

great work!

[PhantomOokami]

Lol, thats not a braid. It's more like a bun, I'm not sure what its really called though. Anyway, I love the hair, it looks awesome. The face looks odd to me though, can't put my finger on it.. but good job!

[hpslashluvr]

it's not a braid yet but it's definitely not a bun...it's what you get when you make a ponytail and don't pull it out all the way :p

thanks woody for the information, are you planning to make a scene to put her in? (you probably said so somewhere in this gigantic thread...:roll:)

[Woody]

ThinkTank -> Yes, I'm working on it... it seems I more or less have the correct shader now, and I'm gonna work on the shape now. But I'm not gonna use hair dynamics cause I'm not gonna animate her (I really was not planning to animate her from the begining, but now the model seems to complex for my computer to animate her). What I want to do with this project is a complete character prepared for the animation, but I'm just gonna pose her.

PhantomOokami -> Actually I'm finally happy with her head... it has been a loooooong travel to finish with this face... A few days ago I saw the first head version looking on my render folder and it was :crazy: :xx: eeeeeeeeek!!! She was an alien... :P

hpslashluvr -> Yes, it's really large... but I said it in the title, it's a laaaaaaarge project. The first idea was to create a real environment, a room with all the details, but now I have no time for that and I want to FINISH with this project soon (cause I said large, not ethernal.. :P). So what I will create now is a simple set, as the sets sometimes photographers use with a model, just a room and not much more. Maybe in the future I create a full room and put Natalie on it, but for the moment I will do the simple room.

[Woody]

Here's an update on the hair. I will change that uncombed hairs over the head, so don't look at it. I will also work a little more on her sideburns, doing them a little more wide and adding some more hairs falling down. Also I've seen the braid shader looks bad, so I will work on that too. But what do you think in general about the hair?? And also, what about adding another light to add some more specular highlights (lower than the front ones) in the backside??? Do you think it will be better or not???

I will really apreciate comments about this!!

[hpslashluvr]

if you mean uncombed by the top of her head type hairs, then i actually like that look

i think another light could help make the hair look less like one color

very awesome tho ;) and nice website btw

[blankslatejoe]

oooooooh... coming a long reaaaally nice.

I think the nose bridge is ok, but the base of the outer edges of the nostrils, wherethey connects to the upperlip-flesh could use a little tweaking; right now there's a dramatic seam right in there, that will only become more dramatic when you light and texture it.

smoothing that out slightly now might save you some trouble later... I only suggest it because you said this is the "last call" for face crits, since you're going to be facerigging soon.



Awesome work though, the hair is top notch!!

[RKgreen]

I like hair!
Tell as you have made them please :0)

[Woody]

hpslashluvr -> uncombed is what my translator tell me, but maybe is not a perfect one... :D I was refering to the hairs that didn't follow the same direction than the general mass of hair, about a centimeter over the whole hair. And thanks for the website comment, I will have to update it one of this days...

blankslatejoe -> Yes, I see what you mean. I thought it was caused for the bad lighting of this render, but I've seen it apears in the orange skin renders, so I will look at it.

RKgreen -> Ok, I will try but there's really not a special method, it's just adding more and more control hairs. First of all, I want to say I'm not happy with shag, I had looooots of problems, for creating the hair, visualization an stability, and I hope ornatrix will work much better once finished, cause I think this is not a good way for creating hair. So what I did, first of all was duplicate Natalie and delete all the body and the face, so I only has the cranium and this is where the hair is growing. Then I divided the hair in some zones, each one with its own shag environment (or two or even three for each zone).
The zones are one for the back part of the hair, two for the sides (left and right), two for the front part of the head (left and right too), two more for the sideburns and one more for the back-down part of the cranium. All this hairs enter that thing is holding the braid (I don't know in english now) but don't go out, so for the braid are diferent hairs. But before talking about the braid, for the head hair. Hair is really not growing from all the head, it's really growing from very little zones on each part using a map for the density. So for example, for the first five parts I divided the hair, (back, sides and fronts) hair only grows from the very top part of the head, not the whole cranium.
The problem is controlling the hair direction. For me it was just impossible to do it as I wanted. The only way to do it is adding lots of control hairs for each zone and more or less it goes where you want, but with lots of irregularity. I have about 40 control hairs in some parts, and the result is not perfect.
As for the braid, is the same, just creating a circle where the braid hair will grow, and creating lots of "shag: hair" environment effects for each part (the first part of the braid, the second, the hair is falling down...). And more or less that's it.

Hope somebody understands something of what I've said... :P

[Corth]

Originally posted by Woody
what about adding another light to add some more specular highlights (lower than the front ones) in the backside??? Do you think it will be better or not???

Why don't you try it and post what it looks like? :) one thing I've noticed is I can't really tell that it IS hair... it seems to just meld into one layer of black... so an extra specular light might just be what it needs.

EDIT: It might just be that the color is so flat as well, try a little random hue, saturation... perhaps more brown...

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, to be honest, I don't understand: Why 40 control hairs! I bet I can achieve the same results like you with only 10 or even less! And shagg has problems only when it comes to your machine. Density of hair or converting it to geometry, well, that's a challenge for the best comps in the world. I used shagg pretty often, even did some animation and the hairs simulation was pretty smooth. Look to see what Blizzard did with it (aldo they writte their plugins by themself). Anyways, I would advise you to review the hair coverage because 40 control hairs are WAY too much. Then... Why add another light that will increase your rendering time when, obviously, all you need are difuse and spec maps? And that horse tail it seems weird, at least to me. Its like some freacky hair dresser has cut out 75% of her hair there but there are some locks of hair that escaped the onslaught!
Per total your work is fabulouse and allow me to take a bow because you proof yourself quite a pacient and devoted person. That gives to your project greatness. But while looking for perfection try to look for methods to achieve it with less resources.

[Woody]

I've changed all I've said I wanted to change, except for the messy hairs over the head, cause I still don't know exactly how to do them. I tried to fix that thing near the nose, but I can't really do it cause I can move vertexs but I can't add, so I will try to do it with texturing. I've also tried adding a backlight with specular but I don't liked the result, too much specular. So what I've done is increasing the general lighting of the hair, to have the same speculars and less black mass. But sorry, cause in this shot I positioned bad the key light and there's almost no speculars in the hair, and I'm lazy to repeat the render now :D.

Avatar -> Yes, obiously that was just my opinion. I have to admit this is the first time I use shag, and I wanted it to have a good hair with the less possible time. For sure I'm doing things wrong or things can be done better in other way, cause I've seen incredible results with shag too, and I just found basic tutorials about shag, so I've learned just playing a little with it.
The worst problem I have is the crashing. It always apears an error when it finish calculating the shadows (but you accept and you can continue the render), and sometimes another apears while rendering (and you have to reset max). I noticed the more density I put in a shag environment the more it crashed, so that's why I have some zones divided in 2 or 3 shag environments, and that's why the control hairs are so high (cause I don't wanted to use the same control hairs to have a more messy hair). So I will be probably able to reduce the control hairs if this crashing disapears, cause I will be able to reduce the numer of shag environments in each zone, but I really don't know what to do to fix it. :(

[FireJin3]

Looks kind of creepy, but she doesn't have real texturs yet.

[Avatar-3DT]

Wait a minute! Do you set the shadow type of your light to composite? And then asign shadow map and hair shadows in the composite parameter thingy?

[Woody]

Eeerrr... not... I use two lights just to create the hair shadows. One at intensity 1 with hair shadows and one at -1 without any shadows. And then I have the other lights that iluminates the scene, cause I will use Brazil and GI for the final shots and shag don't suports this. Can the problem be that??

[Avatar-3DT]

It can be. I had my problem of instability with Brazil. A great renderer but made me pluck hair out of my head. I had crashes because of Brazil, not because of Shag. As for the lights.... I can't imagine why Brazil can't support composite shadows. Its just a way to incorporate two types of shadows in one light. Weird! If it suports a composite shadowed ligh and a normal light why shouldn't suport one single light with both types of shadows? I advise you to make a copy of your scene and to play around with those control hairs. Try to lower their number. At a rate of 40 control hairs, set each on 10 hair desity (its what I use when working with shag) you should have right now about 40.000 hairs on your girl's head. Don't be afraid to experiment a lot.

[Woody]

No, no, I will use Brazil for the final renders, but this gray-head renders are done with scanline, and it crashes too. I will try using composite shadows to see if it still crashes or not. Now I've started the face rigging cause I was bored with the hair :P. I will work more on it later, but once finished this project I will have to do an indeep research to discover how really shag works.

[Woody]

Here's some progres on the facial rigging. I'm not doing a very complex rigging, just to make her smile, open mouth, open/close eyes and basic things. It's not finished yet cause I want to tweak some more things to have a little more control in some parts and fix a few bugs I've seen, but I think is a good point to start with the crits, so tell me what do you think.

[Downup]

ohh pls.. plspls.. show the teath mesh in lowpoly

[hpslashluvr]

i think where she's smiling and showing her teeth, the folds in the cheek could be softened at the top just a teeny tiny tiny bit

looks great :D

[<<GhosTS>>]

Man...that gray colour makes her look like a zombie..

Anyway good expressions..I like the 3rd one..the 4th one seems odd..The crease is too deep & too sharp..

Keep it up man..

[nico3d]

I agree, the fourht look weird.....can´t tell what it is so far though

the model is sooo perfect!!

could you post a wire together with the rig you are using for the face? :D

[Avatar-3DT]

I know what's wrong! You didn't rigg the nose! You see, when we laugh, or just speak, the nostrils are moving. In your pics, you did move only mouth and eyes. What about the cheecks? What about the nostrils. The lower eyelids should close more (almost to half of the eye) when she laugh to give her realism. Also, when relaxed, the upper eyelids should cover 1/4 from the iris to give her a relax pose. I promis to make some example for you.

[shiroii]

Is it just me or are the teeth to small in the 4th image?
Really, I've been thinking about it on my way to school (yes, I'm obsessed) and when normal people do such an extreme expression, you can still see a lot of teeth. In your image it's 1, 2, 3 gone teeth, it looks like they're bended in to much. I can know man, there's this kid in my class and he's got teeth like that. Nobody noticed, but I did and it's true :D <--grin with teeth :) I think that's the problem

About the other area's affected. That depends on what type of Facial System you're gonna use. You can have a wide and narrow shape for speech. The wide shape is only affecting the mouth region. You'd have a special "smile/grin" shape 'cuase else the character would laugh at every wide shape in a word. For more info I'd have to refer to Jason Osipa's book.

I think you should just make the crease a little bit softer. She's got all these soft shapes and stuff, such a harsh line doesn't really suit her. You should soften it out. Maybe pull the mouth corners back a bit more, to fix the teeth problem. You could let the shape bend more "out" than "in" Now it bends "in", dunno, I would have expected it to bend out. Also think about depths. Look in the mirror and smile. Your crease isn't as depth at the top as it is at the bottom. Some parts are more deeper than others, check that out. There must be photo's of her smiling. You could also round the mouth corners a bit more, make it less pointy, since she's opened her mouth. My advise is to look in the mirror very carfully.

Hope this helped some ;)
-shiroii

[Woody]

IDownupI -> Here you have it. Tell me if you want more.

hpslashluvr -> Yes, it seems that everybody see the same problem. Is one of the things I have to tweak.

<<GhosTS>> -> :D Yes, I know is ugly, but it's really fast to render.

Avatar-3DT -> Yes, I move a little up the nose, but maybe I moved it too little. Thanks for the promised examples, everything helps. I really don't know how the lids exactly move with the eyes. Now I have just a control to open/close both lids of each eye, and I've seen that's wrong. I need independent controls for each lid, and that's one of the things I want to tweak too, cause I've seen, for example, that when you look down the upper and lower lid moves down too, and actually I can't do it.

shiroii -> Wooow... this time my english failed, I didn't understanded some of what you tell me. What you decided at the end, teeth are to bend or not?? Anyway, that's the more problematic shape and I will work on it and to have more controls on the lips, so maybe I can try to move the lips diferent on that last pose.
And happy to see you think in Natalie while going to school. :D

[Woody]

nico3d -> Here you have, I don't know if this is what you were asking for. Tell me if not. But I'm really not much happy with that rigging... I will do it really diferent on my next char for sure.

(Sorry for the double post, but I was lazy to upload the images on a server to post them in the same :P)

[Avatar-3DT]

Here are some quick examples of what I meant. I'll be glad to know they can help you.

[jawahar]

everything looksokexcept the fourth expression....nice teeth btw;) :D

[shiroii]

I've got an image too. It might help you a bit :D

[hiero]

Really nice work Woody on the facial rigging, I think what shiroii has posted will improve the expressions. By the way what type of method are u using, the Morpher modifier, XForm Modifier or something else. Keep up the good work :)

[Vacant Planet]

Dude, you have a truly awesome model that is being ruined by the face. Don't let your eagerness to be done sell this project short.

Right now her face look very typical of CG faces. The lips are too straight across and flat. Given the massive amount of reference there is for this dame there's no reason to not spend the time to get it right.

[shiroii]

Vacant Planet, I agree! Good facial expresions are key. If you animate this character most people will look all over her, but will end up somewhere in the eyes. If you talk to somebody you'll probably look to the face and sometimes to the hands. So this must be done just as good as the body. It doesn't matter if you spend like 1 whole day, doing just one shape. If the shape if very close to perfect at the end of the day, you can be really sattified, becuase now you can animate and not have you face screwed up by bad deformations b/c you didn't spend enough time. Of course I know you'll do this just as great as the body, but if you need help, just make another post ;)

(side note: When you're done with a blend/morph/tween/whatever shape be sure to check out how it looks in combinations with other shapes, like:"how does it look when the jaw is open?" or "how does it look if I add a sneer to thi" The shape appart can be good, but it's about the combinations :roll:)

[nico3d]

thanks a lot woody !! that was just about what I needed...although it would be still better if it's not a shaded view but only a wireframe with the rig....

By the way...you used bones....so weird, I had seen that in Maya using clusters and also in antropus work, but never in max....

excellent work... I think you have to work a little bit more on the mouth area...I agree with the rest...

[Woody]

Thanks for your drawings, it's really easier to understand with them. I've been tweaking all that things and adding some more controls to the facial rig, and now I've finished all what I planed to do, so this part will be finished if you don't find any bugs. Here's a render of the more problematic view.

Avatar -> Good detail with the brows on the last one. I didn't noticed it in my references, but she puts her brows exactly as you drawed them when smyling a lot. I don't understand why you move down the brows when you smile, but it seems to be that way.

jawahar -> Thanks! :D

shiroii -> Yes, now I understand all that part about rounding the lips. I had a morph to round them, but maybe I didn't rounded all what it has to be. Now I've rounded it more (and obiously changed the nose, the wrinkle, eyes... all what's visible)

hiero -> I used bones for all the facial rigging except on the cheek zone, where I used morph targets. It also can be done with bones, but I did it with morpher for simplicity.

Vacant Planet -> After loooooooooots of updates on the face I think now is very similar with my references. I don't know if it's a very common CG face, but I think is the face she has. Anyway, now I can tweak too much of the face nor the body, cause all the rigging it's done.

nico3d -> Yes, I've also seen this kind of method for the first time on antropus plumber. Is more or less the same to do it in maya than in max. Maya has the driven key that makes that part a bit more easyer with it, but maybe max 7 has a symilar tool. Anyway, is not a complicated method on the concept and you have more control over the face expressions, but it's a little hard to have it right.



Aaand, sorry my english today if I said something strange, but it's late here, and my language brain zone is completely sleeped... :p

[shiroii]

It looks a lot less creepy :) But I still feel like the mouth corners should be pulled back a little bit, or the teeht scaled up. They look kinda small IMO, besides that it looks a lot better. :)

[Avatar-3DT]

The eyebrow thing is about expresion. You can express a lot of things with a smile and in that expresion all the face is involved. For example a surprised smile would rise the eyebrows and open the eyes a lot. A doubdtfull smile will rise only one eyebrow, will close an eye a little and rise more just one corner of the mouth, and so on, and so on.... Watch the people around you and you will see it.

[Woody]

I've been working on the skin shader and obiously on the lighting. Here you have two tests in a little set I've done (I know it's really simple, but I prefer to focus on her...). One is just lighted with the sun and the sky an in the other I'm trying to simulate artificial lighting. The skin has just a shader, no textures yet. Also the room materials are semi-finished so feel free to comment about that, but I really want crits about the skin, how does it looks and what can I do to improve it.

http://www.salleurl.edu/~tm08127/Natalie/Shader01.jpg

http://www.salleurl.edu/~tm08127/Natalie/Shader02.jpg

shiroii -> That was a fast test to show the changes but now I can control each point of the mouth, so I can tweak it easily in the final shoots.

Avatar -> Yes, I know all in the face helps with the expression, but it was curious you painted them exactly as in my references. Ah, I tried to change the hair shadows to composite shadows, and it seems to be more stable but not perfect yet, cause it still crashes sometimes... so i don't know if I will be able to tweak too much of the hair with that problems. :(

[ThinkTank]

I think she looks to yellowy/tanned, looks like she has a diesease, also along the arms the ligh is breaking up in to blothces which makes it look like she has pigmentation of the skin, the skin it self looks to reflective, she needs to be tonned down ;)

the lighting I really like tho, looks very real tbh!

oh forgot to say, in the last picture, think it might be the angle of the shot but it looks like she has a slice in her eye brow (rude girl)!!!!!!!

Cant wait to see her done, nice work mate!

[Woody]

I was trying to make her look tanned, but not diseased :p. Here are some corrections I've done today. Basically I changed the color to fix that yellowy look and reduced the specular level, but I'm still not sure about that, so it will be nice some more feedback about the skin, cause I'm not completelly sure about that.

And sorry for the small images :P.

[Avatar-3DT]

Hey man, for that example I used the pic with the expresions you've posted and I copy/pasted eyebrows and nose, made some minor adjustements to the eyes with the tablet and so... As for hair, by any chance did you used a skylight with shag? Because if you did, that's what's causing the crashes! Shag doesn't suport skylights. And I've tested the hair on a model of mine. It took me only six model hairs to get a decent hair cut. So, in your case, ten would be perfect. I'll see if I can get togeder somekind of a tutorial for you on this if you want me to.

[Woody]

I have a skylight in the scene, but I thought shag would ignore it... I will try another render excluding the hairs on the skylight. When you talk about ten model hairs... are you talking about aaaall the hair??? If this is true, I really don't know how you do it, cause I use a lot more. I did not find so much tutorials on shag, so I'm using a kind of "woody's method" that probably is not the best. Well, sure is not the best... Any kind of tutorial you can do will be really great, cause for the moment the hair is the part I know less about how to do it.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, I see you really need some help my friend. Here is what I've done in abou 15 minutes, just for you, just to give you an example. And to really help you, download this:
Click here (now it should work!) (http://www.digimation.com/software/asp/product_techtutes.asp?product_id=86)
Hopefully this will help you understand the tricks of shag. Is not very hard you know; once you've got the hang of it. PM me, I'll give you my e-mail so I can send you some tutorials from my private collection. Taken from the www but will save you the trouble of searching them.

[Woody]

Here's some progress on the skin. Now the shader has textures, they aren't definitive cause I till want to tweak a few things, but I wanted to post it here to have some feedback about how's it going. As in the last updates, there's one image with natural lighting and the other with artificial lighting. Any comment about the shader/texture/lighting on her head will be great. Don't mind the eyes, I now they scare now, but they are not textured yet. Also I forgot to exclude some lights of lighting the brows in the second render, but this is not important for this test.

[shiroii]

I like the skin color, it's not too pink, not too red, nice. The lip color is pretty cool too. It does appear like she's wearing lip-gloss or something like that, but that might be what your looking for. Don't have any other comments really.

Are you going to use SSS? It'd be really easy in max 7 :D

[Downup]

Originally posted by Avatar-3DT
Ok, I see you really need some help my friend. Here is what I've done in abou 15 minutes, just for you, just to give you an example. And to really help you, download this:
Click here: (http://www.digimation.com/software/downloads/Tutorials/86/)
Hopefully this will help you understand the tricks of shag. Is not very hard you know; once you've got the hang of it. PM me, I'll give you my e-mail so I can send you some tutorials from my private collection. Taken from the www but will save you the trouble of searching them.


That was realy nice.. how is the settings?.. My hair that i make in shaghair is crazy

btw the link don't work =(

[Avatar-3DT]

Great skin shader! don't forget to add some imperfection to the skin (wrinkles, freckles, pores) and some bump-mapping. Realy cool lips! By the way, try the link again, it works!

[Woody]

Here's a little adjustment I did yesterday. I've just tweaked down the self-ilumination, what do you think it looks better or not??

shiroii -> The idea is not to use SSS, cause it will take me a lot more to render. I'm trying to fake it with translucency and self-ilumination.

[nico3d]

woody, I understand you don´t wanna use SSS because of the rendering times a thousand times higher...but in my opinion, you have to do it with this model. You´ve worked terribly hard on it to waste it with a very plain shader....
In the end you´ll have an unbeatable model, so the Rtimes will pay off :)

[ThinkTank]

I'll be happy to render it on my machine for you, I've got 3d max 7 too :)

go for the best looking thing, and odn't care about the time it takes to render!

DUAL AMD 64Bit Opteron 250 (2.4ghz) + (2.4ghz)
6 Gig DDR 400Mhz RAM
256 DDR 3 ATI X800
1TB Hard drive space (10,000rpm)

[nico3d]

this has nothing to do with this thread....sorry....but....geeeeeez think tank, I want your computer !!!!!!!!!!

hey woody ! there you have it, you can render natalie with SSS in 10 seconds with THinkTank´s computer !! :D

[shiroii]

Originally posted by Woody
shiroii -> The idea is not to use SSS, cause it will take me a lot more to render. I'm trying to fake it with translucency and self-ilumination.

I havn't really checked it myself, but I've checked out the video on the discreet site and the rendering went really really fast. It was done with max 7(new SSS shader option). But I think it wouldn't matter too much wheter you'd do it or not, since most people might not even notice it too mcuh.

[K-Walk Studios]

wow...

:eek:

Your good!

Really looking forward to the film!
There will be a film right?


Just keep working man!!!

[Woody]

If I don't like the skin shader I do without SSS I will problably try to render with it, but I've seen incredible skin shaders on other people without SSS, so I think a good result can be achieved without it. It's true that a high rendering time will probably not be a problem in this project, but I prefer to do it the more stable and fast I can, just for learning for my next char.

ThinkTank -> :eek: :eek: :eek: Please, tell us how you stolen a computer from NASA!!! I want one too!!! :P

K-Walk Studios -> Thanks, but I'm sorry, this character is just for posing in some images, but there will be no animation with her. Maybe with the next one.

[ThinkTank]

Lol NO

I didnt steal it from NASA, I just took a large loan out, the computer cost me £6,600 included a flat bulb 22 inch Mitsubishi Dimond Pro Monitoir (which is excelent qaulity).

case is a server case, comes with hard driver coolers, (theres 5 hard drives) and 8 case fans, with a snaze controller to control speed, (makes a jet noise when on full :) and the lighting dims in the house :P::P

Me next computer I want is 100k, which will be a bigger loan :P but not getting it just yet lol

you guys need any rendering done, I'll see what I can do ;), lol and nice character, getting good mate, well it was never bad, was always good, its getting excelent!!!!

[loocas]

Originally posted by ThinkTank
I'll be happy to render it on my machine for you, I've got 3d max 7 too :)

go for the best looking thing, and odn't care about the time it takes to render!

DUAL AMD 64Bit Opteron 250 (2.4ghz) + (2.4ghz)
6 Gig DDR 400Mhz RAM
256 DDR 3 ATI X800
1TB Hard drive space (10,000rpm)

One off-topic thing: how do you possibly adress 6GB of Ram on Windows? I assume you must be working on windows, 'coz you're using 3ds max and current windows (WinXP64b aren't out as far as I know, if they're, just delete this post :D ) can't address more than 4Gigs (32-bit architecture = 32-bits for addressing 2^32bits = 4,294,967,296 bits exactly...) ;)

When 64-bit win are out (and working!) then we'll be able to addres... vuala 17,179,869,184 Gb!!!!! WOW! 3ds max 64-bit version... BEHOLD my ultra-uber-exa-huge polycounts! :D

[ThinkTank]

I am Aware of that, but theres nothing like planning ahead...is there :) saves me upgrading later....

[loocas]

Originally posted by ThinkTank
I am Aware of that, but theres nothing like planning ahead...is there :) saves me upgrading later....

You're the man dude... you're the man! ;)

[Woody]

Here you have the body and legs textured. I still want to tweak a little more the shader, and looking at this renders I've noticed the neck is too dark in the front, and is abiously bad on the back. I also want to work a bit more the back part of the knees and a few more thigs, but the result will be similar to this. Any comment will be apreciated.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, the vulva part looks like a bit too big for where I'm looking (The ****** is too large) Otherwise looks ok. Maybe more detail on the map (moles and freackles) would add realism. Also, may I advise you to close the upper lid almost to half so the girl should look more relaxed and senzual?

[Dragonkiss]

hello woody,

it looks nice to me, but i think avatar-3dt i sright abou tthe vulva, it's a bit too large i think, and also her pubic hair how did u make them, are painted or is it shag hair? how did you manage to make it seamless is it because of the skin shader, what is thet trick, otherwise i think she rocks:)
go ahead you'll make it..:)

[loocas]

Originally posted by Woody
Here you have the body and legs textured. I still want to tweak a little more the shader, and looking at this renders I've noticed the neck is too dark in the front, and is abiously bad on the back. I also want to work a bit more the back part of the knees and a few more thigs, but the result will be similar to this. Any comment will be apreciated.

Man... I think, except for the hairs, her ##$*@ is absolutely beautiful and perfect... at leas to me :halo: :D

Keep it up dude!! I think you're gonna arouse more than a few pubes here!! ;) which is only a good sign of your superb work!

[shiroii]

About the public hair, it looks really good, but I think you should widen it a bit. It's really thin. You should widen it a bit more at the top and make it thinner at the bottom (just as thin as now but than slightly wider (just a bit)) you could also work on some transparancy. Mostly it's more opaque at the top than at the bottom. Of course it's shaved, but it might be shaved a bit too much IMO. Just make it wider, than it will look even better :)

[Corth]

Your skin shader is looking alot better than it was before :) it's looking pretty orange in the area's where sss would highlight the skin. I'd try giving it a touch more brown, or less yellow, depending on the skin tone you want. It's definitly looking good!

[Woody]

Thanks for the comments. You were right about the pubic hair, it was too large and to thin. I've changed it (but there's not an update yet).

Avatar -> What do you mean with the big ******?? Modeling or texturing? If it's modeling I can't change it at this point, but if it's texturing maybe the new pubic hair size will make it seem better. Actually she has some veins and moles, but I have to recognize there are just a few, cause looking to my references I wasn't able to see anywthing on Natalies body, just the big mole on the ******. Maybe I add some more, but for sure I'm not gona do it a predominant aspect. And for the eyes, you're right, in this renders she's in the modeling pose and I did them 100% opened. It isn't probably the best pose for the eyes, but it was just to test the skin. :D

Dragonkiss -> It's painted. Well, really is taken from a real image and after about 30 minutes of erasing, changing layer properties and tweaking levels, brignes and contrast, I finished with a layer with only some hairs visible.

Loocas -> Thanks :D. Nice you find her beautiful, it's a good sign for sure.

shiroii -> Yes, you were right abut the hair. Hope you see it ok in the next update.

Corth -> I'm still tweaking the shader, maybe I can solve that. The problem is that I want the same shader on two diferent lighting sets, so sometimes I change something that works better on one but then it didn't work on the other... I have to calibrate betwen the two. :P

[Woody]

Here's more progress. For me, the body textures are finished so tell me if you thing there's something more to change. Well, really I want to tweak the part under the neck, cause the texture is a bit stretched there, but appart from that, for me it's finished.

[Dragonkiss]

yo.....that's my man woody..;she looks great now...maybe you should put her pubic hair a bit darker...and for me everything else is fine...continue man....:)

[hpslashluvr]

omg, dragonkiss you focus too much on the details :p

it still looks a little yellowy for the skin for my tastes, but it's really nice, love the eyes too

[wimp]

indeed, she looks a bit ill. Mayb if u make her skin glow?? I think it will make her look more like a photoshop drawing... but that's not a bad thing, is it?

Well anyway GREAT work! how much time did you spend on her so far Woody? or is that 2 rude to ask?

[elros]

Wow...
too perfect.

One thing: I think her eyes (the white part) aren't white enough. There is sort of a green tint. Other than that the eyes look great, as hpslashluvr already said.

[Avatar-3DT]

Updates? No? Come oooooon!

[Woody]

I've seen the last update on another screen, and the colors were absolutelly diferent... Well, the skin wasn't green, but they really changed... Anybody knows a way to configure the screen to have any kind of standard values?? Cause maybe now I'm working with this screen and in the other screens looks bad.

wimp -> It's dificult to say. I've started on march, but this is a personal project, so it means there are lots of days I can work on this, or just work an hour... So I don't know how much real time I've been with this.

elros -> Yes, I'm agree... I think is for the tint of the GI. Is one thing I want to tweak.

Avatar -> Yes, there's an update in the back page.

[Dragonkiss]

hello woody...try to reset your screen to the factory default value maybe it'll help you ortherwise try to correct your color throught your graphic card setting with the gamma setting...tell me if it work see ya!

[Woody]

Yes, but the problem I have is that I don't know if my screen defaul values are the standard or not. But sometimes I've seen images or rules to tweak that gamma values, and that's what I don't know where to find.

[PixeL]

superb! :)

[Avatar-3DT]

Wow! How could I've passed that? Its perfect! Maybe too perfect!So add moles and freckles and wrinkles here and there and lots of pores, especialy on her face. But this its just a suggestion. Gorgeouse model, awsome modeling!

[MercatorDesigns]

Hey woody... ive been keeping up with this thread since it started.. beautiful model and a real inspiration to continue my own work... on your monitor callibration issues... mine is set perfectley and to me... the model is perfect... if you need a program try this one.. its completely free

http://www.normankoren.com/QuickGammaV2EN.exe

here is the info on it

http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#QuickGamma

also here is a monitor tester to see if your monitor is callibrated correctly http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#Monitor_test_pattern

hope this helps mate... good luck and i hope you finish this beauty :)

Merc

[<<GhosTS>>]

Wow... But it looks surealistic.The face looks too perfect..some imperfections would be great..take a look at the attachment.you can have an idea from that.It's from FF...Keep it up.

[Woody]

Ok, I will add some more imperfections on her head, but I'm trying to follow my references to make her as exactly as I can, and I can't see too much of that imperfections, probably cause of the makeup. So I will do it subtle. Anyway, I will not do extreme close-ups in my final shoots, so maybe it will be not apreciated.

MercatorDesigns -> Thanks, it was more or less something like that what I was looking for. I will have to study it cause it seems there are lots of things to tweak and images to calibrate it.

[shiroii]

Really nice, just one crit:
The tearducts are too light. (at least on my monitor hahahaha .....hmmkay) They're light pink. I think they should be darker, they really pop out in the model, I don't really look at the eyes, but at the tearducts, they take too much attention.

I believe there is a program that comes with photoshop, it helps to set your monitor too. You can make different schemes of color settings, and pass them on to other computer you work on, so you'll always have the same color values. I'm sure it can do much more, I havn't worked with it too much.

Cya!

[elros]

^ he speaks the truth... (about the tearducts that is)

[Woody]

I'm agree about the tearducts... Eyes are really causing me lots of problems. I changed it and I've tried to make them more white, but the yellow ambient of the room tint them a lot. How does it look now?? I'm thinking in trying to add some auto-ilumination or something to make the white part look less yellowy. What do you think?

shiroii -> "(at least on my monitor hahahaha .....hmmkay)" :D
I don't tried it yet. I will look at it, but photoshop changes the colors too, so I don't know if another adobe program will change the colors too.

[Dragonkiss]

hello woody..
maybe i will say a big bull****, but if you think there are too yellow, why don't u just exclude them of any light of your scene and just put a light for the eyes only, or maybe set the specular only and not the diffuse of the light so that your eyes wont be so yellow but i'mnot sure about this really, tell me what u think about that...
see ya

[Dragonkiss]

:D hye woody your thread is on the cover page on 3D total.com
lol
yeah it've been a long time now, since you've started it...lol:)
keep it up go ahead...
see ya!

[shiroii]

Hey Woody
Some things,

I think the tearducts might be a little bit too big, just a little bit, if you'd compare them with the FF model, few pages back, they look too big. Or you could let them blend some more into the eyes. You might also reduce the diffuse channel of the material a bit. (how much light it will absorb(dunno the max word believe diffuse is colore in max no?)) Anyhew, it's already looking really great, be sure not to spend a month on tearducts :D

[Avatar-3DT]

I guess its time this thread get five stars. I think you all agree Woody has worked a lot on this and deserves them. That should be a responsability to update us as soon as possible :)
I think the tear duct looks ok but you need better iris maps for the eyes.

Edit: come on guys, give this man five stars! It looks like I already voted (aldo I don't know what the heck happened to my vote) and my vote its not accepted anymore.

[hpslashluvr]

i prolly already asked you this...but how did you light your scene? can you post a screenshot of the lighting setup? i'm always confused on how to place them lol:)

[nileshshah]

very very good work .keep going.

[Woody]

Woow!! Thanks for the frontpage!!! :) I'm so happy that I'm gonna put a :dance: (Really love that smily.. :P)

Dragonkiss -> Lots of times the solution is something obious like this (and then my face will turn to something like :mad:), but now I can't do that, cause the white part and the iris are the same texture, and I don't want to change the lighting on both. And I can't exclude from too much lights, cause that yellowy look comes from the gi and from the reflection, so I will have to do some kind of cheat with the texture.

shiroii -> Yes, I think that mean a bit more darker. But don't worry, now I will first start texturing the clothes, and once finished I will back to this, and the wall texture that I don't like, and a few things more in my to do list.

Avatar -> Come ooonn. Don't give me more pression. Ok, ok, I will try to update as soon as possible :p. Anyway, it seems I will have much more free time in december, so I hope the progress will boost a lot then. The idea is to finish all in december so I will only have to pose her and render in January. And thanks for the stars!

hpslashluvr -> Here you have a screenshoot. Really there are not too much lights. There are two outside of the room, one for the sun and the other for the sky that are casting photons and give the general lighting to the scene. The other lights inside the room don't cast GI, and I use them to light Natalie (One as a key light, others as backlights, or some just to add little details). But I don't use a rule for each light, I just activate or desactivate some, and move them just depending on where's she and how she's posing.

nileshshah -> Thanks!

[Woody]

Ok, here's a fast update by popular demand... :P
Really it isn't too much, but...

[elros]

looking great as alway...:)
Congrats on the front page.

looking at an earlier pic: I think you could increase the specularity on her lips some. They apear sort of dry.

[Avatar-3DT]

Congratulation for making to the front page. Well deserved with all the work here I must say. Nice update! When you'll texture it, you may add some lace texture with opacity map just to add more sexyness to it.

[Woody]

Here's another update, and with this ends the easy part of the clothes... now jeans, socks and sneakers will be more dificult.

Avatar -> Well, I was really planing to let the underwear as in that image. I prefer a simple black underwear, for two reasons. The first is that I want to avoid all the sexual references I can... Ooookaaaay, probably there's nothing more sexual than a nude woman, but I want the final result to inspire just beauty, not sex. And the second reason is that I deformed her breasts in a bad way to get the underwear shape, so probably the nipples are really deformed under that, so better not to show it... But the real reason is the first one, not this :D

[hpslashluvr]

what kind of material did you use on the shirt? it reminds me of your old character's shirt hehe

is there any special way you make your clothes? it always takes me forever...and how are you going to animate the clothes? well i don't think you're doing an animation but you know what i mean...

[shiroii]

Originally posted by Woody
Here's another update, and with this ends the easy part of the clothes... now jeans, socks and sneakers will be more dificult.

Avatar -> Well, I was really planing to let the underwear as in that image. I prefer a simple black underwear, for two reasons. The first is that I want to avoid all the sexual references I can... Ooookaaaay, probably there's nothing more sexual than a nude woman, but I want the final result to inspire just beauty, not sex.

Kay, just a question. When I read the above, the first thing I thought was:"Why?" It seems like you won't pose her nude or in underwear. Why model the publichear, the nipples, little twists on the skin etc then?. All those tiny details are great, I love 'm, but part of me is really confused.

Of course it's just really cool to make all the tiny bits and really make it a model, I think you should do something with it. Use it in an animation or something, like in, wearing just a bra, but putting on a shirt or a jacket.

You know, a part of me is like:
"If you're not gonna use it, why make it?"
then the reply would be:"cuase it's cool" ,
"yeah, but why?" ,
"dude it' just soooo cool",
"tjah"

Anyhow, congrats on the frontpage, didn't mentioned it and I hope you'll be able to finish it :)

EDIT:
Shirt looks really sweet! Does the rope just go through the shirt or are there little plates? Don't know the word, but usually there is a littel bit of metal to prevent the fabric from tearing apart because of the rope collision. There seems to be one on the bottom at the left side, but there's none on the other so....

[shiroii]

F**K!!! First double post in my life :eek:

[sicarius]

MAKE HER A BLONDE!!!!!!!

[nico3d]

I´m already falling in love with a 3d model.....:o

[nico3d]

I´m already falling in love with a 3d model.....:o

[hpslashluvr]

well that's sort of like the argument that says, why model the body under the clothes if it's going to be in a static picture? ppl just do it :)

[elros]

I think the shirt looks very good. I agree with shiroii however about the laces.

MAKE HER A BLONDE!!!!!!!
Look through the beginning of this thread: He is modeling a real girl and her hair isn't blond.:D Besides she'd look allot worse that way IMHO.:;)

[Woody]

hpslashluvr -> Yes, colors are similar, but it's absolutely new :D. For modeling the clothes, I clone the body model, delete all the parts I don't need and try to reuse all the topology I can from the model, and then I add some costures and the things I can't reuse from the body. And when I have all modeled in a rigid way, I start cuting edges, and chamfering them to add some wrinkles, that really makes the clothes look good. There's not a system for that, just having patience, and of course, looking to references. For the animation, I didn't done it yet, but I thought how could I do it. I'm gona skin the clothes normally (well, probably I will move to max 7 to do that, cause it will save me loooooot of time with the new tools), and I have some "invisible" wrinkles. That means the I've modeled more wrinkles than are really seen now, but I tried to make them the less visible as possible now, and I was planing to create a morpher doing that wrinkles visible and the actual ones invisible, so I would be able to change from one to other when she were walking, for example. But I don't know if I'm gonna do it with this project at the end, cause it will mean more work and will probably be not seen... But that's the idea.

shiroii -> lol :D :D :D
I have to explain that. I'm GONNA show her nude, cause obiously I want all the work I've done to be visible. I'm gona do a serie of related images with her, and there she will be seen with and without clothes, with diferent combinations. But what I mean is that even with a nude woman, there's a way to take the image focusing more on the beauty of the body (for example, David from Miquelangelo is a nude man, but nobody think in sex... Obiously I'm not comparing my work with that piece of art), and another more focused on sex (I'm not gonna put examples of this, everybody knows :D). For example, if I wanted to focus her on sex she will probably wear a more sexy thong... it was that what I was meaning.
And about that little metals, yes, there's one on each hole. But probably can be seen very clean at this size and with all the ropes.

[kshishu69]

g'day mate,

this character is looking awesome, u definately have a tone of talent, and you will definately go along way in the 3d industry. I have one question for u, if u have time to somehow explain it quickly.
How and where did u learn to texture the skin like that? it looks perfect. Did u do it from a tutorial somewhere?

Stay ace, im looking forward to more updates

[hells angel]

havent been here in ages...and boy i've missed a lot!!!......Woody..i rem when u started this project around the same month.(or was it week??)...that i started hanuman......and boy this is now lookin great!!.....guess all the patience and time really paid off!!....this i guess is one of those works they call..."labour of love"...:D .....
missed out on seein u on the front page......CONGRATS!!....
gonna keep a more regular watch on this thread now...all the best towards a finale man!!:)

[gnunu]

this sooo dedicated! i think u can save this as for hi-end tutorial. well done!!!

[Woody]

Thanks. I'm not having much time to work these days, but I'm "near" to have the jeans textured, so will post an update "soon".

kshishu69 -> Texturing is not my best skill. I think you need good skills on 2d painting, and I'm absolutelly nule on that. I do what I can using images and lot of photoshop. Really there are few tutorials about that, or I didn't found too much. What I can tell you about the skin texturing process, is that I used lots of images to create a kind of colage in b/w, using the clone stamp, and blurs, and the tipical photoshop tools to have it smooth, that I used as bump map, and then I painted some plain colors over that map to have the difuse. But with more skills for sure can be done better.

[Woody]

It's curious, cause every time I say I'm gonna update soon, something happen and I can't work during 4 or 5 days... anyway, today I've been able to work on this, and here are the jeans and socks. I know some parts of the jeans are crossing the shirt, but that's just cause the clothes are still not linked to the body and I've moved manually to the right position, but it's not the exact position... so don't mind that.

[ThinkTank]

looking real nice, but the jeans should fit more around her ass, looks a bit loose :) stick a tight ass on them jeans :P

[hpslashluvr]

maybe you could make the wrinkles across the front (i guess her ****** area) slightly less horizontal

her socks look like boots lol, maybe if they were whiter or something

[Rych]

Dude this model is kickin arse, very well done,

Critique time though, the pants look like they have too much sheen to them, pants are alot more dull than that, and I think hp is right, maybe do some vertical wrinkles instead, most women have a tiny bit of fat that sticks out down there, it kinda pushes the zipper area out a tiny bit giving you those vertical wrinkles. , plus on low cut pants like that the ****** area usually rides a little tight.

[sicarius]

the back pockets seem a little dark, and it looks like they are just textured in (not actually modeled in) ...

[elros]

Kick ass...:D It's ok if your updates take longer as long as you treat us to such great updates each time. I do agree with hp and Rych about the wrinkles in front. I like the off-white socks...

[Da3X]

I think the jeans should better shape her butt! The overall shape gets somewhat lost with the jeans. For me the zip at the front is located to high and the overall fit is much more sexy if you lower the upper bound of the jeans - don't know how it's really called - maybe low-fit?

[Woody]

I post the reference I followed to do the wrinkles on the front part. If you look at the not bended leg, I think they are similar. I'm planing to make them more visible when bending the leg, so maybe in a more natural pose they will look ok. What do you think???
And for the butt area, here's a more side render, where I think the shape can be better seen. Maybe moving the legs position the shape will look better, but I used the body as reference to make the jeans, so I can't shape it more, cause then the jeans will cross the skin. Oh, and yes, the back sockets are painted, but it's what I was trying to do, I was following a reference I liked, wich has no pockets and just a diferent jean color.

Anyway, the problems seems to be on the modeling, and not on texturing, so I will texture the snikers, and fix some parts as the eyes, for example, and I will look to those wrinkles when skinning the clothes.

[hpslashluvr]

i think a problem is the lack of a seam or whatever it's called for the zipper or at least a button, also i think that the jeans should fit a little tighter at the ****** since it's pretty tight all around, making a slight v shape but just barely since it's a neutral pose...maybe the wrinkles are horizontal but have some variation, you know?

and here are some refs to show what i mean

i think the denim should be darker, it's sexier in my opinion

btw i love the back pockets, i own two pairs of jeans like that:) it's not unusual

[sicarius]

hmm, I can't say i like that style of back pockets hehe :p, but ya, but I guess it is clear that THATS THE NEW STYLE hehe :p

[Woody]

Clothes textures are finished! Here's the shot, I've just finished the snikers and changed the socks color to a darker one (but it's not seen :P). I still didn't changed anything on her jeans, I will look to it now, when skinning the clothes.

hpslashluvr -> Really there's a seam in the zipper area, but a very low one, and also has a button but the shirt is over it :P. I will look to that v shape you say, cause I thing is probably the less natural wrinkle there, and maybe adding more wrinkles... I don't know, I will test it with the legs bended.

[elros]

Nice. So what next? Are going to just pose and render her now? or is there somthing still left to do...

Oh and btw I agree with slash, I think it would look better if the jeans were darker. Up to you of course.:D

[Avatar-3DT]

Beautifull! All I can say at this point: the blouse seems a little too shiny and... Where is the hair? :) :D Just kiding. I know its gonna be there too soon. Great work!

[Fenixy]

amazing work...
do you planing some movie?? :D

[Two Left Hands]

Wow. A++++++

But anyhow... I think that the collar on the shirt is too thin. It looks as if the blouse is made oh a very thin fabric. Uhm, I also agree with HPSlasher... I was gonna bring up the V ****** thing except I couldnt find any good references. I really like the face too, though I dont like the eye brows... They look rather fake and thin... OH! And I think that the texture on the face could do with some more color or blips (the skin looks too monocromaticly flat; doll-like)

But either way... A++++++ :p

[Woody]

elros -> Now I still have to make the clothes move with the skin (I hope I will be able to start tomorrow), and I would like to improve the hair but this will depend on the time I have. And then I will "just" have to pose her, tweak a bit the lighting to adapt to each pose, and also work a bit with reactor, cause I will have to make the clothes fall when she will be undressing... But I'm finally finishing this!!! :smug:
About the jean color, it was darker in the firsts tests I did, and I tweaked it as it is now, cause I like it more this way... it's just my taste.

Avatar -> :D Yes, is one of the top ten questions. I think till the final shoots there are not gonna be more shots with hair. I'm probably agree with the shiny of her shirt. I've looked it and maybe it's a bit to high, so maybe I will tweak it.

Goust -> Nop, I really don't like the animation part (or it's the part I like less), so I'm not gonna animate her.

Two Left Hands -> Thanks for the score. :D I'm gonna look that ****** zone, but about the skin I added more irregularity some time ago, but really comparing with the refenreces I can't see much on the real model, so I toned it down.

[jppolk]

its nice, lookin fw to the end result.

[sarN]

damn, she looks good even when shes bald :D cant wait till u get some hair on her!

[Woody]

Here you have some stupid poses to test it :P.

[Avatar-3DT]

Its a pitty I can't give stars everytime I visit this thread. You really deserve them. I wish I can rigg as good as you. Then I would find courage to start my own demoreel :)

[elros]

Hmm... I don't know if you can fix it at this point, but it looks like her heal is too big (coming too far back behind her ankle.) Other than that it looks great.

[Silver1989]

nice and realistic render, can you give some screenshots of a close in on the hands? thanks :)

[Avatar-3DT]

I think the rigg is making the heel being so prominent because the heel on the other leg looks just fine.

[elros]

:)^

Yes I agree. I never noticed a problem earlier...

[Woody]

It """seems""" that the next time I work on this I'm gonna start posing her to the final renders. I've finished skinning the clothes and tweaked some more things and all seems to be finished. The final result will be a serie of 9 images, and I supose it will take me some time cause in each I will have to pose her, tweak the lighting, use some clothes dynamics, do some test renders... And the render size will be really big too, so lets see how much it take me. Anyway, this means that probably I'm not gonna post more updates here till all it's finished (creating expectation :D :D). I can maybe show specific things for critisism if I have a specific problem, but the idea is not to do it (But you know, always I say something is finished I go back another time to work on this, so...).

Avatar -> Thanks. The new max 7 tools really will help to that. I'm looking forward to start a new char with this tools. I've tried to tweak the hair, but it's still crashing. :grr: And it seems there's no reason, cause I even tried just a hairy sphere and with a big hair quantity it crashes too. So I decided my computer hates shag, or shag hates my computer. I finally tried to reduce a bit the control hair quantity, but really not important changes.

elros -> Really, I don't know. At this point I've seen the mesh so many times that I'm not able to see what's wrong and what's right :P. I prefered not to change things more, cause it will be much work and maybe it's something that will not be seen later.

Silver1989 -> There are some old closeups on the hands in this thread (don't know what page), but I think you're talking about a textured one. I still don't have a render of that, just what I showed but if you want I can do some renders.

[Woody]

It's FINSIHED!!!! Ueeeee!!! Finally!!!

Well, here you have the link to the finished works thread:

http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25987


I want to thank you all for your help, cause without it for sure the result would had been worst for sure. Hope you like it!!!

[sicarius]

absolutely fabulous work ..you worked REALLY REALLY super long on this and it paid off ....

Awesome!

[elros]

Yeh!!!
Congatulations

[The Crazy Noob]

ok, i didn't read the entire thread but, how did you make the breasts get affected by gravity? (i'm a noob in 3ds ;) )

[rage]

speechless man, congrats!

[shauryashaurya]

jaw dropping man!
absolute magic
congratulations...

[Woody]

Wow, this thread is live another time!!! Thanks for the comments.

The Crazy Noob -> It's curious, somebody asked me the same by email a few days ago. That's what I answered him:

"Well, I really don't remember exactly how that was, but more or less, what I needed to know was where was the body looking at, cause knowing that you would be able to rotate the breast bones according. I remember I used 3 helpers for that. One of them was linked to the spine in the breasts zone, and the other two were linked to that first one. Of that two, one was positioned one unit in front of its parent, and the other one unit below its parent. With this I did something like A.x - B.x and A.z - C.z, where A it's the parent of the other two helpers and B and C are that helpers, and with that 2 substractions I had two values between 1 and -1 that where telling me how the body was positioned. Then I used that values to rotate the breast bones (really I don't remember how I did it exactly, but the important part is the other). And also I rotated up that bones when she was moving up an arm."

Also, I don't know if I explained it on this thread.

[The Crazy Noob]

Wow, this thread is live another time!!! Thanks for the comments.

The Crazy Noob -> It's curious, somebody asked me the same by email a few days ago. That's what I answered him:

"Well, I really don't remember exactly how that was, but more or less, what I needed to know was where was the body looking at, cause knowing that you would be able to rotate the breast bones according. I remember I used 3 helpers for that. One of them was linked to the spine in the breasts zone, and the other two were linked to that first one. Of that two, one was positioned one unit in front of its parent, and the other one unit below its parent. With this I did something like A.x - B.x and A.z - C.z, where A it's the parent of the other two helpers and B and C are that helpers, and with that 2 substractions I had two values between 1 and -1 that where telling me how the body was positioned. Then I used that values to rotate the breast bones (really I don't remember how I did it exactly, but the important part is the other). And also I rotated up that bones when she was moving up an arm."

Also, I don't know if I explained it on this thread.
wow :eek: that's like chinese to me...

i thought that maybe you could select those polygons and maybe assign them to act like rubber or any other stretchy material like that.

[jdgill]

wow that's like chinese to me...


I believe all it means is he added some fancy bones to it :p.