Whats The Point Of Life? [Archive]

A*HOSNY

28-06-2004, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by claWda
you won't get anywhere in life by being honest, even I've experienced that and I'm only 18, as for the search for god, well, god has never done anything for me so I guess he can search for me, tell me how cool he is and what he can do for me, then I MIGHT listen

you won't get anywhere in life by being honest, even I've experienced that and I'm only 18
So what!! thats your problem
if the whole world are liar dose that mean to become a liar NO
if the whole world are cheaters dose that mean to become a cheater NO
if the whole world are not honest dose that mean to become a not honest person NO
If the whole world say there isn't a god dose that mean that there is no God NO

as for the search for god, well, god has never done anything for me so I guess he can search for me, tell me how cool he is and what he can do for me, then I MIGHT listen

The Answer:
28: 77. Verily, Qarun was of the people of Moses, but he behaved tyrannical towards them. And WE had given him treasures of hoarded wealth so much that the keys there of would have weighed down a party of strong men. When his people said to him, `Exult not, surely ALLAH loves not those who exult;
28: 78. `And seek, in that which ALLAH has given thee, the Home of the Hereafter; and neglect not thy lot in this world; and do good to others as ALLAH has done good to thee; And seek not to create mischief in the land. Verily, ALLAH loves not those who create mischief;'
28: 79. He said, `All this has been given to me because of the knowledge I possess.' Did he not know that ALLAH had destroyed before him generations that were mightier than he and greater in riches ? And the guilty shall not be asked to offer an explanation of their sins.
28: 80. So he went forth before his people in all his pomp. Those who were desirous of the life of this world said, `Would that we had the like of what Qarun has been given ! Truly, he is the master of great fortune.'
28: 81. But those who had been given knowledge said, `Woe unto you, ALLAH's reward is best for those who believe and do good works; and it shall be granted to no one except those who are steadfast.'
28: 82. Then WE caused the earth to swallow him up and his dwelling; And he had no party to help him against ALLAH, nor was he of those who can defend themselves.
28: 83. And those who had coveted his position the day before began to say, `Ruin seize thee ! it is indeed ALLAH Who enlarges the provisions for such of HIS servants as HE pleases and straitens it for whom HE pleases. Had not ALLAH been gracious to us, HE would have caused it to swallow us up also. Ah ! the ungrateful never prosper.'
28: 84. This is the home of the Hereafter. WE give it to those who seek not self-exaltation in the earth, nor corruption. And the good end is for the righteous. (sura 28)

We have in egypt the lake that his palace was on it now it's under it,It called Qarun lake

And finally about God gifts to you
look how much they are too much
You can(LISTEN,SEE,TALK,UNDERSTAND,THINK,TASTE,FEEL,SM ELL,
WALK,SLEEP,PLAY,STUDY,EAT,DRINK,etc...)
Being(HEALTHY,IN A GOOD SHAPE,LOOK NICE)
you have(ALL ORGANS IN YOUR BODY COMPLETE)
The ability to (LEARN NEW THINGS IN LIFE+You can memorize them)
but the most thing that i see that it's the biggest gift from God
is that you are EXIST IN THIS WORLD
do not you ever thikk that you might not born from the beginig

i do not remmember all of the now cause god say :
If you try to count how much gifts god give to you you can not
And remember i only said what you have in your self do not
speak about what's around you like your money or familey or work

Next...

A*HOSNY

28-06-2004, 03:01 AM

Some of God Power
the atheist will call it nature power:roll:
i say fine you call it nature and i will call it God
But as i learned from life and i'm 21 years old
every thing created MUST have a creator
and the thing that had been created tells you the power of the one who creat it
;)

A*HOSNY

28-06-2004, 03:12 AM

galaxys

claWda

28-06-2004, 05:08 AM

I do what I have to, to get a good life, and that sometimes includes lying, and often cheating, I'm not perfect, are you? you're religious, you should know about that throwing the first stone, no?

you know I have respect for religious people up to the point when they just try to brainwash you with their, sorry, religious bull****, if I want that I can just read the world most sold piece of s**t or the qouran (spelling?), whatever, you're just as fanatic for god's existans as I'm an atheist, but I reallyreally believe the latter is better

I exist in this world because my parents got together, nothing else, I believe it's called sex, in which the man penetrates the woman and, if both parties want to, impregnates her with his seamon, it's all perfectly explainable, but I guess god did that too huh?

god is a concept made up by man a long time ago to explain things they did not understand (some due to the lack of electricity - light), "it" is not needed today

Chris-3DT

28-06-2004, 05:30 AM

God, nature and science are concepts by man that serve a single purpose: to make the world explainable.

Man strongly dislikes not to know what's going on, not to know how things happened, not to understand (take a look at a*hosny's remark that everything must have a creator). That is an assumption that is not neccessarily true. Did the universe have a creator? porbably not, but i don't know.

not to know is something i have made peace with and that's why i, personally, don't need the concept of a god to explain things i cannot understand.

Some examples:
I don't know why my brain knows 350ms before me that i want to move my hand.

I don't know why I see the world bottom down, sky up while the image of it in my brain receives is actually upside down.

I don't know why the universe came to exist.

i don't know so many things but i can live with it. Accepting not to understand and not to know is the first step to freedom (whatever freedom might be. how free am i when my brain is always fatser than me?)
Those who cannot accept not to be able to control this emptiness came up with god. god is the source of everything and he is just like the way i described him in the book i wrote.

il_paulio

28-06-2004, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Chris-3DT
he is just like the way i described him in the book i wrote.

U wrote a book Chris? Where can i buy it? Im interested in ur view of things like this.

Chris-3DT

28-06-2004, 06:03 AM

what i mean is that someone wrote a book (the bible, quoran, &c.). this "I" is the someone.

maybe i will venture into writing a book on the matter in my late years though - i'll keep you posted ;)

il_paulio

28-06-2004, 06:21 AM

LOL yeah i read the part again and now i get it :) Well too bad :D But still if u ever write a book ill be ur first reader ;)

3dGator

28-06-2004, 06:46 AM

I don't want to get involved in religious squabbles, but about what you said, Chris, "Did the universe have a creator? porbably not, but i don't know." I believe that the universe had a creator, and this is based on a simple scientific fact, a law of physics: "there is no reaction without an action", Newton's first law. Basically, the universe must have been created in order to exist! Now wether the creator is a God, a Supreme Being, or an offshoot of other parallel universes, or whatever is up to you... Do notice however this must be true, since everything in the universe is bound by the laws of physics, hence it must itself be bound by those same laws.;)

Tvaren

28-06-2004, 06:50 AM

This question is a lot easier for Buddhists to answer. We just say something Zen-like and move on.

If you're not convinced that the moment you're living in right now is a good enough reason to keep living, then no amount of miracles or natural beauty is likely to ever convince you. You have to find in yourself an interest in learning what the world is, and what other people are all about, before you can really learn anything about yourself.

Chris-3DT

28-06-2004, 07:15 AM

that everything abides the laws of physics is a prejudice of yours ;)
j/k, i don't wanna argue on a soliplistic level, that would be ridiciolous.

let's agree on the fact that we wil never know what or who created the universe. science will never be able to find out because they can only see something that happend in "time". "time" is between the bang and now. everything before time is not accessible. :)

Zergling

28-06-2004, 11:08 AM

Time is an illusion.

Okay, I am living for Christ. I witness to people as the opportunities present themselves. I am a child of God, and I do what I can to spread His word.

BUT this does not mean I have to witness and all 24/7. I've ridden in cars without a seatbelt, i've smoked and drank underage ... i've done all kinds of bad stuff ('cept drugs. Stay away from that stuff). I'm living to have fun. I'm living for the experience of life. Part of the experience is witnessing to people. It gives me a rush to see other people's faces light up (they do, literally, glow) when they realize the truth and begin seeing things the way they really are. All part of life here...

Now, i'm not gonna start a big discussion about whether God exists or not, where the universe came from, or any of that junk. I've learned that arguing sucessfully with people over the internet is as close to impossible as a person in a sports car obeying the speed limits.

Fact is, life's a big opportunity. You can be whatever you want to be. 's all up to you. I'm a Christian, but just because i've found religeon doesn't mean i've devoted my life to one certain thing.

Have a blast!

Oh yeah, and the eye does percieve the image of the earth (or whatever) upside-down ... but does it flip the image again? mmm? Maybe we are seeing everything upside-down. Never know.

john silver

28-06-2004, 12:20 PM

Seriously people Christianity is a cinch', I don't see why it's so disliked. You don't have to do anything chruchy, that's not to say though that if Jesus is really in your life that you would want to be all churchy. I hope that makes sense.

Also to all the Atheists out there, YOU MAY BE A MONKEY, BUT I AM CERTAINLY NOT. LOL

Chokin Hazard™

28-06-2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by A*HOSNY
every thing created MUST have a creator

;)

If every thing that was created must have a creator then there is no way to trace god or theres no way He exist. Because He must have a creator. And that creator must also have a creator. And that creator of creator of God must also have a creator. So then the creator of creator of creator of God will also need a creator.

Thats why I dont believe in God.

dhin

28-06-2004, 01:14 PM

I might aswell explain my pervious statement now. (To try to stear things wasy from a Flame War on religion.) All religious views aside the "point" of life is a simple question with a complex answer. The point to life encompases the two major question; "what is the purpose of life," and "what is the meaning of life."

Purpose - gain immortality.
Meaning - Up to the one living.

Gaining immortality is not meant in a religious way here (thought It can definatly be taken to that way to, but we'll leave that alone for now.) By "gaining immortality" I mean one of to ways. First through the merits of your life. A person can gain immortality through being remembered even after they die. Their deeds in life are remembered. Look at all the great names in history, these people are immortal, they have not been forgotten and so like on in story and imagination. The second way to gain immortality (and a more common of doing it is) though reproducetion. That's right your children, (not quite ancestor worship but I can see where the idea comes from.) I would not be me if not for my parents, And my children would not be them if not for me. In them I live on with all of my ancestor, in them I am immortal. (So long as they have children also. . .) Simply put if we can gain immortality we have gained purpose to our live. You may not exactly agree here (don't really expect people to,) but think about this, a life where nothing memorable is accomplished and no other person is brought into to share it with is there a point to it? Seems pointless to me.

Next meaning. People often search for meaning in the meaningless. They say sence events in life can't always given meaning of be explained then life it's self has no meaning or there must be a meaning and they begin to search for one. Meaning to life though is a personal choice. My life's meaning and yours may and probable will be different. But all life has meaning or else it would cease. When life no longer has meaning the will to live is lost and the person waistes away waiting to die. Meaning must be activily looked for and give to life. A life without meaning then is also pointless.

So the point is to figure it out yourself and help others out too. Above all though, I think the point is to live a GOOD life. I like the golden rule to help define that one. "Do unto others, as you would have done to you," treat others witht the respect and open mindedness you want. Okay maybe the answer is complext and simple at the same time.

A*HOSNY

28-06-2004, 01:53 PM

claWda No one is perfect otherwise he will be angle BUT you have to try:)
So what about the prophets guys
You do not believe by all of them!

I do not know from where you came by the idea that God used just to scare people or to explain things in time that was not accessible
i have a very simple rule that can solve this problem for me without arrogant
which is NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE

SO:
when you see a chair you know that some one create it
when you see a car you know that some one create it
when you see the EARTH you know that some one create it

But who create it no one dare among the human to say that
but a prophets come to us from us to deliver a massage
from the one who create it should we say No!

And why he did not show us him self why to send prophets?
The prophets answer us that no one can see him now cause we
are not ready in this life our body can not see him
he is exisit but we can not see him like alot of things in this life he create it but we do not see it and make it as a prove for his prophets
If we can not see some creatures so how can we see the creator!

For god sake guys we can not see bacteria and Virus except using
microscope we can not see more than 1 KM we are so weak to see the one who create this universal in 6 days
----
20: 15. `Verily , I am ALLAH; there is no god but I, so worship ME alone and observe Prayer for my remembrance;
20: 16. Surely, the Hour is coming and I am going to manifest it, that every soul may be recompensed for its labours;
20: 17. `So let not him, who believes not therein and follows his own low desires, turn thee away therefrom, lest thou perish(sura20)

chokin_hazard
When i said every thing created MUST have a creator
i mean in this life but i do not know if this rule can be applied
on God cause i do not know what God looks like or from where he come and this is not important for me in this life may be in the hereafter i will want to know
but thinking in a creator for God now will just make you unbeliever cause i'm sure it will be over our mind and life laws
like physics so you just try to learn physics and be genius then ask about who is god or from where he come
Do not compare him with you cause he can not applied to any life tests because simply he is the one who create it and make you invent it and learn it;)

God said in koran "No thing looks like him"

john silver

28-06-2004, 02:00 PM

I would post some inflammatory post, but I'm really enjoying VR's "Contraband" so i don't really care right now.

john silver

28-06-2004, 02:03 PM

Actually, I am going to say that because music exists so does God. I'm convinced.

dhin

28-06-2004, 02:17 PM

A*HOSNY - Discussing religion with the close minded is like trying to navigate a mine field in snow shoes while wearing a blindfold. Any comment about God will be meet with enmity.

Religion is an important thing to some, but most find it offensive mainly due to fear from what I can tell. It's that whole security in ignorance thing, (e.g. "if I deny knowing and learning it then if it ends up true I can't be blamed because I didn't know.") Though it is a flawed view it give a false since of safety, and many people fight very jealously to protect that illusion. Of course the argument can be posed in the other direction as well, that is why being open-minded and analytical is important.

For me I see all around me as proof of my belief system. For others they see those same things as disproofs of it. I believe what I believe not because of anythink that can be used in such a way though. "Proofs" only deepen belief, they do not cause or destroy them. Doubts works the same way.

A*HOSNY

28-06-2004, 02:26 PM

I did not mention religion in my post did i??!?!?!?!?!?
:(

dhin

28-06-2004, 02:29 PM

Basically most people will relate God, religion and scripture the same way. It's okay.

novoAlias

28-06-2004, 02:49 PM

the silmarillion is as good a religion as anything to believe in :D

john silver

28-06-2004, 02:59 PM

OMG WTF Blackwolf? If you're refering to Tolkien, then you're dumb. Tolkien was a Christian. So WTF?

claWda

28-06-2004, 03:15 PM

listen all, I'm not narrowminded, it's just that I've been hearing the same thing for like 10 years now and it's getting a bit weak tbh.

okay it's pretty clear I don't believe in god but the reason I react is - I NEVER say god doesn't exist until I hear someone saying he does, makes sense?

this means that in different ways, I hear someone saying how good god is or I should embrace god daily, while I never run around telling people not to believe in him THAT IS, until I hear someone telling me to.

So for me, you religious people don't respect the fact that I really really REALLY do not want to hear about god yet you bring him up all the time and I've had enough, it's my right to react, while you all may think I'm dumb or hateful or narrowminded; it's you all that are narrowminded cause you can't see that we atheists are fed up with your jesustalk.

And to clear things up a bit more, I have many deeply religious friends, both christian and muslim and while they may not always be fun to hang with, they're pretty smart and very kind so anyone thinking I'm hateful towards religious people can just be quiet.

A*hosny I can see I've upset you a bit, so sorry for that, hope you can understand how I think

and dhin you say

"Discussing religion with the close minded is like trying to navigate a mine field in snow shoes while wearing a blindfold. Any comment about God will be meet with enmity"

once again I am not close minded, I am very able to discuss religion so please don't call me close minded, I can go on calling you that, because you believe in god, but once again, you don't respect me, I respect you

3dGator

28-06-2004, 04:51 PM

Amen to that, claWda! I know exactly how you feel. Its damn annoying and irritating when the only argument people can give to their beliefs is quotes from any so-called sacred-book. Don't get me wrong, I respect all forms of belief/religion; I'm a bit of a Budhist myself, but quoting passages from the Bible, or Koran to justify anything is like trying to brainwash people. I suppose the most irritating kind of religious fanatic is a Jehova's Witness knocking at your door to quote you the whole "revised version of the bible" while your in the middle of your dinner!:p

dhin

28-06-2004, 05:11 PM

Never said narrow minded, hateful or dumb. I said "closed minded." They are not the same. Look at the difference close minded means that you have formed your opionin and are unwilling to be open to new ideas, narrowminded is being focused one only one line of thought. And I've never disrespected you.

I'm not out to "convert" you or anything. In fact I tried not to even mention religion or a god of any type. The fact is though when a discution like this starts God will always come into it, because someone will always believe that it is a major part of their belief system. (Just as disbelief in god influinces your belief system.) To berate someone for those beliefs will get those types of responces back. An attack of that type (even if it is only preceved as an attack and wasn't meant that way,) will cause this kind of back and forth. Look at the statments for what they are. . . personal opinion. (And to fight about that is stupid.)

Is my statment about snowshoes not true?

A*HOSNY

29-06-2004, 03:03 AM

Ok guys first i want to apologized for any one i hurt his feeling specialy ClaWda AND dhin
sorry guys:)
but i just want to let you know that if i'm not loving all guys on 3d TOTAL and feel like we are all like one big family i would not say what i said about god
cause i'm afraid on you cause i have no 1 percent that there is NO god
so i just trying to help
may be i have no tools to convince you but what can i do i must to help as far as i can

So again it's up to you and one day you will find him but search do not stay in your position and say there is no god;)

claWda

29-06-2004, 02:27 PM

you didn't hurt my feelings dude, only girls can do that ;)

anyway, you know you might be right, when I'm 30 or 40 or whatever, I might start searching for god even though it's not very likely

My life's going well right now, so I really do not feel the need to search for god, but when I hit rock bottom (they say we all do at some point) maybe that'll be my only option, to search for god. But as is now, I'm 18 and feeling fine so maybe I should wait 20 or 30 years...

A*HOSNY

29-06-2004, 03:32 PM

Well if you are talking serious so i have to remined you
that no one know when he is going to die:)

Chokin Hazard™

29-06-2004, 03:55 PM

lol@everyone.

I think God doesnt exist so does the beggining of the universe. If God do exist then He should post sumfin now!

dhin

29-06-2004, 05:43 PM

Are you just trying to stir it up again?

If you are get ready to dodge lightning bolts ;)

MonteCristo

29-06-2004, 07:14 PM

Here's my viewpoint for what it's worth:

I am not a religious person, but also, I never discounted the existence of God. My major problem with all religious texts is that they were written by men. The King James Bible, for example, was an edited version of a sacred text, and I refuse to believe something wholeheartedly if it has come from the hands of men. It's like newspapers: We read newspapers daily, and each paper gives a differing view on a story; people are biased. How any text thousands of years old can be trusted to tell me 'the truth' is beyond me.

I do not know what God is. For all I know, we and every other thing in the universe ARE God, like the millions of neurons that make up the consiousness of a brain, so in effect, I have no idea what God is or where or how it/he/she exists. In a world where science broadens our views of the universe around us, I am only able to believe that religious texts created thousands of years ago were lacking the complete picture (as we still are btw).

So how, might I ask you, am I to believe these things?

My decision is that I don't, I believe that there is SOMETHING out there, but I cannot comprehend what it is yet, and so, I must concentrate upon things that are immediately around me. I.E. you guys, family, friends, me.

From any perspective, it is a wise decision to live as a good person. Whether it be because you 'love thy neighbour' or simply from an evolutionist point of view -- where conflict hinders the growth of the species.
I refuse to believe that we are destined to remain on this planet forever, and oneday, when a meteorite comes for us or the planet dies out, we will need science to survive. That is our fate, but left to the Amish (no offence) we would still be ploughing fields when the meteor hits.

So basically, religion as a philosophy to be a good person is a great thing, but religion causes, and has caused too much death and conflict. This, I believe is the nature of man, when a viewpoint is inflexible and communication breaks down.

I accept all religions and am glad of those people who find solace and contentment through their view of God. That is a good thing. All I ask is that they accept me, and do not seek to change me or judge me. I'm trying my best to be a good fellow-human, and if there is a God (an omnipotent being who will judge me come death) then I believe he will understand that I never sought to offend, but tried to live honourably. I don't believe that would warrant an eternity burning in hell.

THEREFORE, the meaning of life is: Experience this world around you and have fun, but never at the expense of others. Learn and help learn, Live and let Live.

Case solved.

Laters.

ronrn

29-06-2004, 08:02 PM

I think the question should be... what is the point in life... Today? As the saying goes...yesterday is gone and there is no promise of a tommorrow.

I have heard a lot of different views and opinions in my 48 years. But when it comes down to it, I have come to believe that my purpose is...... Now, this very moment.

I am 'constantly' being challenged with decisions that require immediate reaction. My beliefs/disbeliefs, my experiences, and my natural instincts are all I have to rely on in order to make these decisions. Learning from these decisions, the right ones and the wrong ones, is what I call wisdom.

The room, the city, the country, the world, the universe, or whatever it is I "see" when I look around me, is so large and overwhelming that I can't deny that I am only a minute part of it. Yet, I cannot deny how much it is a part of me, whether I like it or not.

My mind is a wonderful thing. I can see a past and I can see a future. I can see things that never have been and things that never will be. I can also realize that these are my visions and mine alone. I can only hope that, in the past, good decisions I have made have had a positive impact and that the bad ones have done no harm, but only the future will tell. So I carry on for.... Now, this very moment.

peace
:)

Chris-3DT

29-06-2004, 08:48 PM

Monte: good call!

Holo

29-06-2004, 10:26 PM

Lifes just a long joke, The trick is to find someone to laugh with.

otacon

30-06-2004, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by MonteCristo-3DT
Here's my viewpoint for what it's worth:

I am not a religious person, but also, I never discounted the existence of God. My major problem with all religious texts is that they were written by men. The King James Bible, for example, was an edited version of a sacred text, and I refuse to believe something wholeheartedly if it has come from the hands of men. It's like newspapers: We read newspapers daily, and each paper gives a differing view on a story; people are biased. How any text thousands of years old can be trusted to tell me 'the truth' is beyond me.

I do not know what God is. For all I know, we and every other thing in the universe ARE God, like the millions of neurons that make up the consiousness of a brain, so in effect, I have no idea what God is or where or how it/he/she exists. In a world where science broadens our views of the universe around us, I am only able to believe that religious texts created thousands of years ago were lacking the complete picture (as we still are btw).

So how, might I ask you, am I to believe these things?

My decision is that I don't, I believe that there is SOMETHING out there, but I cannot comprehend what it is yet, and so, I must concentrate upon things that are immediately around me. I.E. you guys, family, friends, me.

From any perspective, it is a wise decision to live as a good person. Whether it be because you 'love thy neighbour' or simply from an evolutionist point of view -- where conflict hinders the growth of the species.
I refuse to believe that we are destined to remain on this planet forever, and oneday, when a meteorite comes for us or the planet dies out, we will need science to survive. That is our fate, but left to the Amish (no offence) we would still be ploughing fields when the meteor hits.

So basically, religion as a philosophy to be a good person is a great thing, but religion causes, and has caused too much death and conflict. This, I believe is the nature of man, when a viewpoint is inflexible and communication breaks down.

I accept all religions and am glad of those people who find solace and contentment through their view of God. That is a good thing. All I ask is that they accept me, and do not seek to change me or judge me. I'm trying my best to be a good fellow-human, and if there is a God (an omnipotent being who will judge me come death) then I believe he will understand that I never sought to offend, but tried to live honourably. I don't believe that would warrant an eternity burning in hell.

THEREFORE, the meaning of life is: Experience this world around you and have fun, but never at the expense of others. Learn and help learn, Live and let Live.

Case solved.

Laters.

Dont want to get into an argument, but i do want to ask a few questions.

You say you dont believe what the bible says because it was written by men. That is true, it was written by men, but it was written by men who were under the divine influence of God. So basically it was God using the prophets to write down His word. Thats why its called the word of God.

Second, how can you accept a religion and yet ask them to not try and change you? For this discussion lets use christianity as an example. I am a christian. You accept that. I accept you for who you are, but i dont agree with your belief because it conflicts with mine. So it is my duty to try and lead you to christ....thats part of my religion. Now, if you accept my religion, then you must accept the fact that i cant just let you be the way you are, without trying to change you. So dont expect people to keep their beliefs to themselves.

Thirdly, you say that you try and live a good life, and be a good fellow human. But by whos standard is that? What if what you think is living a good life is different from what i think is living a good life? The fact is, we can try and live a good life but in the end we are still sinners. But God has given us a way to nullify those sins. You say God will understand that you never sought to offend. Sure, he will understand that. But it wont get you into heaven. He only looks at one thing. Whether or not you know Jesus as your savior.

If anything i hope i have at least made you think a little bit more about life, what it means, and there is much more to it than just having fun.:)

enjoiskating543

30-06-2004, 01:53 AM

there isnt a point to life..day after day you choose what you do where you go when how why...theres no almighty end we are trying to reach (heaven)..not to be against religeon..buti personally dont believe in one creator...we evolved from nothing..

anyway im saying there isnt a point to life, aside from trying to enjoy it, but thats your choice

~peace

enjoiskating543

30-06-2004, 02:35 AM

freedom of religeon, dont push that (bs) towards me again..you think what you want, ill think what i want, its just what you decide to believe in, and im going to believe in science, with its proven facts, rather than what some person wrote in a book.

before this turns into a "fight" chill out, and just recognize other peoples views

~peace

*EDIT
"But the fact remains that science is against itself. Science says that every thing is breaking down, and dieing. The sun is dieing, you are dieing every single minute you are dieing, you are loosing life. So the simple theory of Evolution is just a hoax."

umm...things can evolve then die, they can become more advanced, and pass on those genes to the next generation before they croak.. you know what, we are all more educated than when the human race started, because we evolved our knowledge and learned more and passed that on before they died. and so on..continualy passing on more and more knowledge until now. just saying that because things die in evolution and time, doesnt mean they cant evolve and reproduce and continue to evolve and reproduce. there is no "thing" that gave us more knowledge over the years, we learned. there is no "thing" that decided to unslop our foreheads from our ancestors like neanderthals..look at them, alike yet body seems deformed to us, we evolved and look the way we do because we EVOLVED god didnt say hey..heres some better body shape for ya, go nuts with it. /EDIT

claWda

30-06-2004, 02:43 AM

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Chris-3DT

30-06-2004, 02:46 AM

Initially, to all religious ppl out there: quoting religious texts (especially Quoran, Bible and other major texts) is pointless, you will not "convert" an Atheist to believe with these man-made texts.

I'm studying literature-sciences so I dareday I know something about texts.
I can talk about figures and happenings described in fiction just like I can alk abotu you and me. Peter, Jesus and the other folks from the Bible are no mroe than fictitious characters, be they based on real ones or not. As an example you can take Goethe's Faust (no one will doubt that this is literature, so it's a good example).

Faust is a fictious figure based on a man who actually lived. In the drama he is fictitious nonetheless, which means that I, as a reader, can put anything into him that I want to put into him.

Now the readers of the bible will have to understand that they are reading prose. The events and figures described are fictitious no more, no less. This is essentially why it is pointless to argue with quotes. I cannot argue with a quote from Paul Auster's City of Glass either. That simply doesn't work.

Worshippers of whatever cult (and cults they are allthough they like to hide the word behind terms like "Church", "World Religion", etc., becausr cult smells of something "pagan".) should give the following a thought:

a) we do not want to hear anything about a fictiutious god. if we want to read about fictitious gods we will take the Silmarillion (beuatiful text, much better written than ther bible) or similar texts, eg. about greek mythology.

b) we do not want to be converted

now about christianity:

the Romans imported a Belief from Persia (today's Iran): They choose to worship the sungod Mithra (renamed to Mithras by the romans).
Mithras high holiday was december 24th (25th after the change of calendar). Mithras high temple was on a hill nowadays known as the Vatican, the high priest was known as papa, you might have heard of him as the pope, for that's the name he bears now. The hat this pope wears is, funny enough, "Mitra".
Please give it a thought that religion could be no more than a product of social dynamics. It was created by men, inherited from one generation to the next. Please.

:roll:

claWda

30-06-2004, 02:58 AM

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MonteCristo

30-06-2004, 03:09 AM

Firstly, I would like to address Otacon. I would like to remind people, that theological debates can tend to get heated. At no point am I angry here, so please read my words as though they come from a perfectly calm, happy individual engaged in a discussion, and not a row.

Originally posted by otacon
Dont want to get into an argument, but i do want to ask a few questions.

Don't worry, we aren't going to get into an argument here, unless we mean a healthy weighed argument or a discussion. An "Off-Topic Discussion." :)

You say you dont believe what the bible says because it was written by men. That is true, it was written by men, but it was written by men who were under the divine influence of God.

Says who? That would be men, right? Hence my eternal problem.

Second, how can you accept a religion and yet ask them to not try and change you?

... but i dont agree with your belief because it conflicts with mine. So it is my duty to try and lead you to christ....

Hmm, I suppose that's true. But considering you are a man told what to believe by men, your words will - from my perspective -carry that same loss of validity to me. I do appreciate that you are trying to improve things for me, but I won't probably change for it.
I assume that some of your christian beliefs differ in lines to those of other types of christians right? Or do you all have it figured out together...
Are there some things that you would consider sinful that others wouldn't and vice versa? Alcohol for example, sex, looking at naked people, even 3D could be construed as an imitation of god and possibly sinful. So if the word of God is so clear and your beliefs are so finely laid out, how come you don't all agree on the same things? I suspect it's because once again, you are men, and men are fallible. I cannot listen to everything in religion and say "Yes, that is correct," because these beliefs are understood in different ways by different people. Was the spanish inquisition right? Was the burning to death of so called heretics right, when it is apparently a sin to kill? "Thou shalt not kill" I don't recall reading any footnotes there. To me that means, you should not kill: ever. I will always abide by that one, but so many christians have not, and seem to think that under certain circumstances killing is necessary. Are these the same people that I should listen to when they tell me how the universe actually is?

Thirdly, you say that you try and live a good life, and be a good fellow human. But by whos standard is that?

Mine. Laws. The understanding of pain, and to understand that pain makes people unhappy, therefore don't do it, and if you have, apologise and try to make up for it. "Do unto others..."
There are parts to all religions that make sense to me, that strike a more solid balance of truth. I take what makes sense to me and put it into practice. I don't kill, I don't steal, and I treat people as much as I would like to be treated as I can. Not because I will burn in hell if I don't, but because it makes sense to me. Why do I live like this? Because whilst the word of man is fallible, there are certain truths that can be gleaned from all of them, just as there are other words that make no sense and sound like someone thousands of years ago trying to make sense of the universe.

Chris-3DT

30-06-2004, 03:31 AM

Thirdly, you say that you try and live a good life, and be a good fellow human. But by whos standard is that?

I absolutely agree with Monte here (and in the other points he made).

Atheists are by no means individuals who live by the standard that they can do whatever they want because they cannot be hold credible for it by a higher institution.

It is ethics, the understanding of "good" and "evil" deeds that makes us humans. Religion can be used to enforce ethics because the "sinner" has to be afraid of "burning in hell". Atheists have to decide on their own and usually, from what I can tell, they are doin a good job at it.

Unfortunately there are bad examples of atheists as well as bad examples of christians, muslims and so on.
What that means? that all individuals of mankind have to improve and better themselves, mindless of hells and heavens.

also i strongly disagree with religion determining social classes as hinduism does.

otacon

30-06-2004, 04:22 AM

If I wanted to be a christian, I'd go buy the bible, I'd start praying, I'd visit church now and then, it's very simple so DO TELL ME, why the HELL do you people have to run around spreading your religion!?

Maybe if i knew you personally i wouldnt have said anything. I dont know anyone on here, and i dont know what they have and have not heard. And i wasnt directing my comments to you, they were for MonteCristo.

Mine. Laws. The understanding of pain, and to understand that pain makes people unhappy, therefore don't do it, and if you have, apologise and try to make up for it. "Do unto others..."

Hmm, I suppose that's true. But considering you are a man told what to believe by men, your words will - from my perspective -carry that same loss of validity to me.

So you are living your life according to laws that man founded, and according to your own feelings. But is mans word valid? The words of the men who wrote the bible are not valid to you....so why are the laws that man wrote valid? This kind of logic does not hold up IMO, unless im missing something. Do unto others....hmm, where have i read that before...;)

I assume that some of your christian beliefs differ in lines to those of other types of christians right? Or do you all have it figured out together...

It does sound messy when you hear about all the different denominations and all the different views. I agree that man is the reason for that. The one thing that all christians believe is that Jesus is the son of God and he died on the cross for your sins. If you believe that then you are a christian.

"Thou shalt not kill" I don't recall reading any footnotes there. To me that means, you should not kill: ever. I will always abide by that one, but so many christians have not, and seem to think that under certain circumstances killing is necessary.

It is one of the ten commandments. Im glad you believe that. Do you believe the rest are right? Because if not, then what makes that one worth believing but not the others?

Daniel

30-06-2004, 04:50 AM

oh man... so much stuff has been said, I do want to throw my 2 cents in, but I don't want to write down 10 pages, lol...

well first
Originally posted by otacon
So it is my duty to try and lead you to christ....thats part of my religion. Now, if you accept my religion, then you must accept the fact that i cant just let you be the way you are, without trying to change you. So dont expect people to keep their beliefs to themselves.

I don't understand why you say that, I am christian, I believe in God and 'most' of what was said in the bible, but I don't make it a point to try to convert people. I do keep by beliefs to myself unless someone wants to talk about it.

second

Originally posted by Lord Septerra
I hope you don't think humans evolved from apes.But if you do, can you say where apes came from, or bacteria for a fact.

uhm dude... read a book, evolution is true buddy. It has been proven time and again with dna and fossil findings and much more. I have incorporated science with religion since to me both cannot be ignored. If you choose to believe that we simply appeared out of thin air by the whim of god and ignore all scientific facts, you are truly living in the past. You might as well have a bible in your hands and your head in the sand,

third
originally posted by Clawda
you know **** this, I no longer have any respect whatsoever for religious people, you're closing your eyes from reality, deal with your problems!

listen man, I used to think you were not that bad, but by that statetement you are truly retarded. I do believe in religion, but I do not push it onto people. I do believe we make our own choices are not governed by god. So I don't deserve any respect huh? Go copulate with an iron pole you *****. :p

I could say sooooo much, but I think I've already wasted ennough time...

3dGator

30-06-2004, 05:36 AM

I find that all religions are similiar in many aspects to each other. In a way the so-called Holy-Books (like the Koran, or Bible) are good points of reference to study ancient history. They also describe "laws" of conduct (like the ten commandments), which explain what people should do in order to live in harmony.
But I don't believe in any religion, per-se. I believe in the ten commandments for instance, because it seems only fair and right "not to kill", "not to steal", etcetera.... But I don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church: because it doesn't accept scientific facts that have been proved time and time again, like evolution. We all have such ambiguous feelings in things that weren't intended to be seperated, I guess.
Like I already said, I'm more Budhist than anything else, and to me, the point of life is for us to acchieve happiness and to better ourselves.
Anyway, that's my 2C for all its worth. ;)

Daniel

30-06-2004, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by Lord Septerra
What you believe is Theistic evolution. Science and the Bible cannot go togther they must stay apart. Therfore Theistic evolution is wrong. You say evolution is a fact, well NO IT IS NOT! It's called the THEORY OF EVOLUTION for a reason! A guess! Also fossil samples cannot say that we evolved. So if we did tell me, where are the millions of fossils of evolving humans. Why have we only found a so"called Ape Like Human. Wheres the in between?
If you keep your religion to yourself are you really accepting the religion yourself. Are you ashamed?

Listen man, more enlightened people than you have come to the conclusion that both can go together since either can't be ignored. Even if I do believe in evolution, that doesn't mean I stand against christ. Who do you think I'm going to believe, a little religious know it all from a 3D board of a catholic priest I've known for my entire life?

And I am not religious to myself, I talk about it and have long drawn out debates with people I know. I am not ashamed, I just don't pester people with it like you seem to do I guess. I'm not like those jehova's witnesses that bother people from house to house and can't take a hint when your not interested. People like you give religion a bad name and turn more people away from religion than you bring em into.

Most of these countries are in Europe. And the main religion in Europe is Catholic. And since Catholic is wrong I can see why all of yall minds have been blind sighted. You have been blocked off from the true christian belief. And lead astray in the world of darkness.

you know what man, I don't even know what to say to something like that. Your like a fanatic or something... Catholic is wrong... world of darkness... Your bordering on psychotic cult talk. Who are you to judge the way people believe or live? Do you think your better than others? How do you know you are 100% right, had god sat down, drank a cup of coffee with you and told you your beliefs are the only good ones?

If you don't agree the way I live out my life and revere god, I seriously don't care since to me you carry no weight to your arguments.

otacon

30-06-2004, 07:13 AM

I don't understand why you say that, I am christian, I believe in God and 'most' of what was said in the bible, but I don't make it a point to try to convert people. I do keep by beliefs to myself unless someone wants to talk about it.

We are having a discussion about the purpose of life and why we are on this earth. I think that qualifies as wanting to talk about it. I didnt become a member on this forum for the purpose of converting people, but if the discussion comes up then i dont see whats wrong with talking about it.

Even if I do believe in evolution, that doesn't mean I stand against christ.

So, God said he created the heaven and the earth. You said you believe in evolution. You said you believe in God. Something doesnt add up if you ask me...

And Lord Septerra, there are some who worship in the catholic church who are christian. I dont think we should judge. Only God knows their heart.

Daniel

30-06-2004, 07:46 AM

So, God said he created the heaven and the earth. You said you believe in evolution. You said you believe in God. Something doesnt add up if you ask me...

I was having that conversation with the priest at the church I used to go to. And like he said to me, a lot of the things in the bible are symbolism. Like Adam and Eve for the apple, the apple symbolised sin not the eating of the actual fruit. So it's all interpretation.

As for the seven days of the creation of all life on earth, it can be interpreted that the seven days is more than seven actual days. The day can stand for millions of years. To me, my way of believing is, fine, evolution says life started with bacteria, ok. God created that, he sparked the life on the planet, he directed it in the ways he wanted it to be.

That's how it adds up to me Otacon.

otacon

30-06-2004, 07:59 AM

Ive heard that theory before. Let me ask you this. God created animals, then he created man and breathed in him the breath of life. He gave man power over all the animals. Thats what the bible says. Do you believe that? If so, why do you think man evolved from bacteria?

Daniel

30-06-2004, 08:41 AM

I believe all life started from bacteria on earth when the climate was still inhospitable for plants. Eventually plants evolved and so oxygen was created. Hence life was now able to be born and eventually the land was populated with life.

I truly respect animals, many people say that they don't have emotions or don't even realise they are there. I don't believe this having grown up with animals. Look at apes, they are so close to humans it's almost scary. They laugh, cry and have a social habitat. So when I read that we have evolved from apes (cavemen), I do believe it. What I believe is that God allowed a sub species to evolve from them, I believe he gaves them the power of the mind, so we were able to evolve to what we are now.

So in a way, he did breathe life into us, the human race. That is my interpretation. The way I was brought up to believe by my parents, religion, church if you want. I'm not about to change my way of thinking now ;) So yeah, it's a damn long road, but bacteria we once were if you ask me. Bacteria favored by god :p

Chris-3DT

30-06-2004, 12:27 PM

Ppl, i'm laughing my arse of here. Christian fanatics are fun to listen to.

Be glad Atheists aren't like that god described in the Pentateuch (the five books of moses, for the unknowing). If we did we would take revenge on you: an eye for an eye and a "heretic" for a fanatic.

You could fire the stakes high, were we to live by that standard. Luckily we have come to think up stronger Ethics. Men in general did, it seems, which would be why the later descritptions of god are much more liberal - they were just not accepted anymore. And without acceptance the leading class cannot rule by means of religion and then religion is worthless. :)

Chris-3DT

30-06-2004, 12:39 PM

I was having that conversation with the priest at the church I used to go to. And like he said to me, a lot of the things in the bible are symbolism. Like Adam and Eve for the apple, the apple symbolised sin not the eating of the actual fruit. So it's all interpretation.

To underline this, may I mention that i have my doubts that any of the authros of the bible ever saw an apple, must be a pretty bad translation, this unfallible word of god. an apple tree growing in the desert, in the nile delta or in iraq?
as i said, i ahve my doubts there. not even going into the whole creation of the world myth, which was taken from greek mythology, (Gaia and Uranos)

What is really remarkable about Christianity is that it is a pretty patchwork of many beliefs such as Persian, Pagan, Roman.

The way this religion was constructed should make it obvious that it is no more (nor less of course) than the product of society, meant to make the weak and oppressed accept their weakness and opression. (ie. "If you don't worship god you will burn in hell, so worship him and buy a candle!")

Chokin Hazard™

30-06-2004, 12:44 PM

I think someone invented/created religion because they were weak. They were probably scared of other guys eating/killing them so they started saying that if you kill someone you will be banished to hell for an eternity.

And if God do exist then he is probably just the agent of the Big Bang

dhin

30-06-2004, 01:43 PM

This has spiraled out of control. I stand by what I said earlier. Arguments about religion and theological beliefs are pointless. Either you believe in God and are trying (or not trying depending on you) to serve Him or you don't believe in God and try to live in a way you see fit. Most people have a certain view of right and wrong. Interestingly most people have very similar views of right and wrong. Making choices to do what you view as right are what we called morals. Ultimately choices are yours to make and you choose to live and make your life what it is. Good or bad it's up to you. If you choose to believe in God it's your right, if you choose otherwise it's still your choice. We face the consciequinces for our actions whether there is a God or not. . . No one can escape it.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" (PoGP AoF 11; or HotC Vol. 4, pp. 535—541)

QED

claWda

30-06-2004, 02:14 PM

sorry daniel didn't really mean that, got caught up I guess, as I mentioned before I have religious friends but the difference is, not once have they mentioned god to me which is the reason why I 1) like them and 2) can stand them, but I apologize, edited my post, didn't even mean that

will stop participating in these debates from now on, since I like it here in threedy and I would love to stay ;) and as chris said, you christian fanatics are fun to listen to, notice I'm laughing at you not with you, and to whoever said I'm narrowminded and I will go to hell, at least I'm living life right now and I bet it's a hundred times more fun than yours

and dhin, it's like the fourth time it's been posted here, do not quote religious texts, oh man, I'll just stop now before I say something stupid

dhin

30-06-2004, 03:00 PM

Sorry ClaWda, but I was using it to argue for you not against you. I wasn't meaning to offend. . . though most groups would not take my source as a "religious text." It simply comes from a statment of beliefs.

Torlok2002

30-06-2004, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Lord Septerra
claWda

You don't want to hear because you narrow-minded. You must open your mind to the religious world for if people like you ruled this world it would be in shandels.
Do you see any people like you over there helping the sick people in Africa or serving as the President. i hope you're not in the United States because on all of our money we have IN GOD WE TRUST this country was founded be Christians and i'm glad it was. If it was founded by somebody like you we would'nt be free probably the world would be destroyed now cause you have no respect for life, no meaning for life. And no foundation. That's why there are goths in this world, they don't believe in GOD and have no foundation of life....so they hand their life over to satan....and no man can deny that satan is not real.

Septerra: This post is completely ravaged by ignorance, as well as all of your other posts in this thread. You have a completely closed mind, and are expecting other to succome toy your beleifs... why? I can understant having a somewhat closed mind (we all do at some point or another, all caused by social values and norms, ingrained within us from the moment we are born by society) but to abandon all logic for some fanatical reason? Are my friends dieing in iraq because god wanted this sham of a "president" to become our leader and arbitrarily invade another country? Did god also give the people the will to vote for bush so he could sneak the Patriot Act (http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/PATRIOT/) into american law? The same one that takes away several of our most precious rights, if we are even suspected of being a terrorist. People need to open their eyes sometimes and see whats going on rather than living inside their nice clean shell, quoting some item (ie: bible) they have no proof of outside of the proof from quotes from that item(ie: bible). Circular logic doesnt work in my book. But i forgot, you have abandoned all logic.

All: I have met quite a few people over the years and i must say the ones who I think have been the meanest and rudest are the extremely religious. I have been told to "have fun in hell", "Burn in hell." and many various other phrases similar to that. On the other hand, most non-religious people I have debated with have been quite open minded and are ok with me ebeleiving what i beleive.