Schooling

[Oniram]

So I've been looking at colleges to go to after i graduate high school this june, and i really want to go into the 3d industry. whether it be games, movies, etc, im not so sure of yet, but i know for sure i want to be a 3d artist. I've been accepted to the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale, and will most likely be attending there in october of this year. of course im sure that more schooling will be required after the 3 years ill spend at AI, but i do not know of many other schools offering 3d courses. The only ones ive really heard of are the Toronto Film School and another film school in Canada who's name escapes me right now. I was just wanting some feedback on what are some pretty good schools, not only in the United States, but anywhere. All help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Honki]

Try some of these first,

http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=52271
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=53029
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=51848
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=51710
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=50870
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=49416
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=48431
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=53542

This list took me about 5 mins to compile, and are only threads started in 2007 I think.
Plenty of them here.

You'll find people here are responding to threads of this topic less and less.
As there is a new thread, with someone asking which university they should pay $100k attend, started almost every week.

Please pardon my obnoxiousness, but my wife cooked a pie for dinner, again.

[neolith]

Colleges are only good for skipping classes.

[MonteCristo]

I have to say, I do wonder about the relevence of colleges for learning 3d these days. The good ones are few and far between it seems. There are enough resources online, and a good portfolio speaks more highly than a college certificate. Ultimately, If I were hiring, I'd care more about the quality of the art than anything else.

My 2 cents.

[Honki]

My sentiments exactly Mont.
A lot of people agree, especially those who have actually attended such courses.
I found THIS (http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=53029) thread started by Jeremiah Bigley to show a fair amount of interest in the topic, and most of the opinions stated that in no uncertain terms, that a qualification related to this industry, is a complete waste of time and money.

[Oniram]

oh yes i agree with you too Mont, but having a college degree cant hurt. and besides, ill also be getting hands on training as apposed to just buying dvds and self teaching. i mean, ive been self teaching photoshop for about 3 or 4 years, and 3ds max for about 2 years, and starting mudbox now. but like i said, its hands on, and its not only 3d stuff in max, its drawing also, so i can do my own concepts (i dont now), and its also working in UnrealEd. i dunno, college in this field is not necessary, but it does help.

[MonteCristo]

Sure, I can see your point there Oniram. But the "can't hurt" point isn't quite true. Debt, my friend: that's the hurt. :) My point is you really need to weigh that one up.

Actually, if there is a benefit to college, it's that it will give you the chance to really focus on your art (self-directed study is always great if you can find the time). I am always sceptical about what you will actually learn on one of these courses, but that's because my own course was a steaming heap of s**t, and my tutors were the ones crapping it out. how does it go...? "Those who can't, teach." Of course there are exceptions, but Honki and others are right to give warning.

[Oniram]

i see where you're coming from. debt is a big factor. 80k can do a lot of damage. luckily the state i live in offers scholarships for those "extra special" students, and im eligable for a 75% tuition scholarship. and also, it does give me a chance to focus on my 3d work. at home now, i try to motivate myself to do some work, but i just procrastinate sometimes. see, ive made the decision to go to scool for this stuff, no question about that, but its basically all about where ill go depending on what kind of education i can get. id rather go to a school that focuses completely on 3d rather than the regular university thats all academic stuff. i see those schools for people who dont know what they want to do in the future. at the art institute, ill ALL of my classes (except for 2 in the first two semesters) are focused around my major. so i dunno. i think itd be beneficial for me, also due to the fact that i dont expect to get hired right out of high school.

[MonteCristo]

Well, good luck then. Sounds like you have it figured out pretty smartly. :)

Sooo... I'll leave you with one parting shot that RockStarKate mentioned in page 2 of Honki's last link. This is the best advice I can give you, so listen to it.

"Those that live it, succeed."

Doesn't matter what the "it" is music, art, drama... the ones that get there are the ones that actually dive in. Sounds like you will, but you keep making sure you are several steps ahead of the rest of your class. Don't assume because you are doing what they are doing that it's enough. Chances are they are naive and know nothing much about anything. So study hard, read forums, practice insane amounts (within reason, of course) and just live 3d for the next few years. This will put you ahead. The cool part is, if you really love 3d, you'll enjoy all this focusing.

[MonteCristo]

Ok, so next piece of advice, a little one, but a good one.

"Build real things."

Orcs and Goblins are all well and good, but the best way to build a portfolio is to create a foundation of real-world objects and people. You see, you can throw a bunch of trolls on someone's desk (not literally, before you say, Honki), and they can be the most detailed trolls in the world. But then, who's to say you went wrong anywhere? Who's to say the large collection of bumps on the troll's forehead are correctly placed, or that the oversized nose is big enough? Nobody. There is no real-world reference. For this reason a detailed human-being will always be more impressive than a detailed troll.

Good Luck.

[Oniram]

thanks. ill keep that in mind. :D ive actually started up a "detailed human-being" as youve mentioned. ill be sure to show it to you when its near completion. :D ive actually been doing it based on the eva wild series.

[MonteCristo]

LOL. Sounds good. I look forward to seeing it. Remember this too, though... Once you've got the Eva Tutorial figured out, make sure to try to find your own style. Once the Joan of Arc tutorial went up, we had (and still get) so many posts of people saying things like: "Ninja Girl", and it is so obviously the Joan of Arc model. Be careful of that, that's all I'm saying ;)

[Oniram]

haha. okay. well ive gone through some tuts, including joan of arc (though there are most i havent completed, i just do them to get the feel of it). ive done Joan of Arc, Subdivision Modelling (girl), Eva, and ive taken a look at swordmaster but never followed any of it. and i also have a dvd i purchased from amazon that teaches 3 different organic modelling methods. all these different styles, and ive actually taken a strong liking to poly by poly (which i did on my first head model.. of an orc. lmao).

[MonteCristo]

LOL! Sounds like you're putting in the work, my friend. :D Keep it up!.

[Bigley]

I know I got in on this thread kinda late but,...

let me say that this is a subject that comes up alot and as a current student at the Art Institute of Dallas I really don't have any regrets in choosing this school. In the previous thead of mine that Honki posted there were a few that said AI isn't worth it... When I got here I was at the beginning of a new program because they completely redesigned it.
It went from a 2 year degree to a bachelor's degree got a new director for that major and tons of new teachers that are in the industry and teaching as a side job.

One of my teachers, Klingler, has worked on over 30 2D Disney movies. Directed a fair share of movies, worked on tons of games (Call of Duty 4 being one I recall) and has 3 degrees.
I know for some people in the field have had better careers but this just is nice to know that he knows what he is teaching.

I don't expect anything less from teachers here.

And you my friend have the opportunity to go to a AI in Florida. That is almost like being one from California. I envy you.

I am sure you have already made up you mind to get a degree so don't listen to the ppl who say it isn't worth it... because when you start your career, you WILL have alot more knowledge than someone who is just starting and doesn't have a degree.

[Aleks]

I'd probably go to a college if we had any around here.Most of the major companies require a degree,so having one is quite a big advantage.
Though,if you are willing to spend ~100k on the education,I wouldn't go anywhere,but VFS,The Gnomon Workshop and Think Tank Training Center...

[Oniram]

Thanks for the support Bigley. and question for ya? are you majoring in Game Art & Design at your AI?

[Bigley]

I am actually in the bachelor's degree program here called Media Arts and Animation. They don't break it down to games or anything.

Aleks I do agree with you on the VFS. Man I have seen nothing but awesome stuff from that place. I have never looked into Think Tank or the Gnomon Workshop.

Only thing I worry about those places are them being degrees where they take you in and just teach you the program and get you a portfolio going.
Almost like they are not focusing on your traditional 2d skills as well.

"anyone can be taught to use a program..." I believe is what they say here.

[McKronic]

I went to the Toronto Film School and it was alright I guess, I learned a fair bit but a lot of the things I ended up teaching myself, from what I hear the school is in pretty rough shape though, I was one of my few classmates to actually get a job in the industry, from what iv seen I would recommend the Vancouver film school iv seen a lot of really nice demo's come out of there that doesn't necessarily mean the education there is good though.. im not sure if demo reels there are individual or if there group reels or how much help you actually get during the process of creating it, there are a lot of other smaller private courses you can take I don't know any off hand but I have seen a lot around. Hopefully that gives you some kind of idea if you have any questions about anything just ask away man :D

[McKronic]

And one more thing in regards to what other people have been saying, alot of companies look to see that you have some form of degree not for the fact because they think you need to go to college to learn 3D just for the simple fact that you were able to commit to something and finish and show that you have some sort of drive to be in the industry along with that some schools will expose you to such things as how a production pipeline works and how crucial it is that your able to adapt into it, its not always necessarily based on how good your skills are for most jobs you might not even utilize 50% of your abilities and you will look at the final piece of work and it won't be up to 'your' standards but it is what 'they' want so you have to keep that in the back of your mind and not beat yourself up over something you had no control over, anyway theres my 2nd rant lol

[Lethn]

It all depends, if you were going for your average office job or even with music I'd say go for it, but 3D is an area that's extremely specialized, I'm doing a Games Design course right now in college and to be honest it wasn't as bad as school was for me, but it's not exactly the greatest thing on earth and it CERTAINLY hasn't helped me make my demo reel and portfolio I did that all myself, if your really determined to go to college then pick something else that's not to do with games at all, maybe just basic animation or something like that.

The reason is, even though the teachers might know something about 3D and might have worked in the games industry and whatnot, the management almost certainly haven't, all their job is, is to make up some kind of criteria for students to work from and because they have no basic knowledge of that it ends up being just nothing more than tedious and mundane tasks and assignments that are mostly done in word, that's pretty much how it ended up for me, if your going to go to a college for the games, make sure its a good one that's specialized in the 3D area, then the management will at least have some idea of what they're talking about, otherwise practice at home, improve your 3D and get a demo reel set up.

Oh and if you go to college, be prepared to get into some arguments with teachers about wanting to do things your way, I model out of imagination most of the time and because of that I'm going to fail my concept art unit, to be honest, I think it's a load of crap, but if you can take going down a strictly linear path and being told what to do then it might be worth it, but to be honest, even with the qualifications you get I think the most you'll be able to get is your average office job if you haven't even had the time to get a proper portfolio up as some people have said.

[inveni0]

I have to say, I do wonder about the relevence of colleges for learning 3d these days. The good ones are few and far between it seems. There are enough resources online, and a good portfolio speaks more highly than a college certificate. Ultimately, If I were hiring, I'd care more about the quality of the art than anything else.

My 2 cents.

I ALMOST agree. The only benefit a degree would give is that it shows you have experience working under deadlines and within the workflow requirements of an authority. Resumes that include group work that was completed on deadline will stand out above others.

Also, you can be a great artist working alone, but tutorials online (and working alone) are essentially just a collection of different ways to complete a project. For instance, there are at minimum 3 different ways to model an organic character.

My advice is to attend a small (community) college that offers courses in videography and graphic design. If they offer 3D courses, jump on that, too. Get the lowest level certificate you can. This will save you money, but will also provide a document that says "I Have Been Trained In" this, this and that.

The next step would be to learn auxiliary programs on your own, such as ZBrush (which is more and more becoming industry standard), MudBox, etc.

Also, attending seminars on different aspects of the software pipeline are good to have on the old resume.

But I would never, never, ever say, "A degree is a waste of time." I guarantee that between you and an artist of equal talent, the one with a degree wins.

[Oniram]

true, but like Jeremiah said: "anyone can be taught to use a program..."

[Lethn]

Yep it all depends on what type of company and the like your applying for as well, a degree won't always save you, I'm pretty sure that a lot of companies in divisions for publisher companies in the games industry would ask you for one, what I did was go onto a job engine like gamesindustry.biz and found a job that seemed to match up with my skills, the great thing is in the Games Industry what you actually MAKE and can do is your qualification not just a piece of paper, again I think it all depends on what kind of job and company your after.

Because I just can't stand going through education anymore, I've decided I'm going to work my up through the more independent companies and get experience and you know, if you get a title and actual industry experience behind your back and can say "I have done this title for this company" then they will be far willing to accept you from what I hear even if you don't have a degree, but then again, it all depends on what you want to do.

[inveni0]

true, but like Jeremiah said: "anyone can be taught to use a program..."

Yeah, and some people have a piece of paper that shows how well they've learned it, and not just some fancy model that probably took them 7 months of struggle to figure out.

[Lethn]

Yeah, but what proves that they have the better 3D skills by itself? That piece of paper or that model? If they just showed the piece of paper and a crappy bit of work then for all the employers know that person might not even know a thing about 3D software, I'm amazed that I'm seeing this kind of attitude everywhere to this line of work to be honest.

It all depends, if the course is offering to teach you 3D and get your portfolio up for you then go for it, but if it's just going to give you worthless assignments then don't, for crying out loud don't, I honestly don't think you should do it because I've spent a whole year on my course and already I feel like I've wasted a lot of my time and life as the amount of time I took doing those written assignments I could have gotten my 3D work done and a demo reel ready to go, I spent all this Christmas getting it together and to a standard that I at least thought was decent but I think It could have been so much better if I had started earlier.

[inveni0]

Yeah, but what proves that they have the better 3D skills by itself? That piece of paper or that model? If they just showed the piece of paper and a crappy bit of work then for all the employers know that person might not even know a thing about 3D software, I'm amazed that I'm seeing this kind of attitude everywhere to this line of work to be honest.

It all depends, if the course is offering to teach you 3D and get your portfolio up for you then go for it, but if it's just going to give you worthless assignments then don't, for crying out loud don't, I honestly don't think you should do it because I've spent a whole year on my course and already I feel like I've wasted a lot of my time and life as the amount of time I took doing those written assignments I could have gotten my 3D work done and a demo reel ready to go, I spent all this Christmas getting it together and to a standard that I at least thought was decent but I think It could have been so much better if I had started earlier.


My point is: In the past, when I would hire an artist, I looked at portfolio. If skill level was similar, then I went on to formal training. And formal training won.

[McKronic]

Ok heres another angle to look at things from, when you go to school you meet friends and develop contacts, when you graduate if one of your friends gets a job they might be able to help you out which gives you a huge chance over many other people who don't know anyone, also when I finished college I was at the top of my class and I got a part-time job as an assistant teaching students which gave me some form of experience which helped me get a job also one of my classmates told me about the company I applied at, so yah there is always other benefits of school aside from the education.

[Aleks]

Yeah, and some people have a piece of paper that shows how well they've learned it, and not just some fancy model that probably took them 7 months of struggle to figure out.

I totally agree on this one.Take me for example.I think I can model pretty well now,but most of my models took me quite some time to create - more than a months for each model from my demo reel.This was mostly due to the laziness,but still...
With a degree and a strong portfolio an employee can clearly see what you are capable of, whereas having just some pretty models on your site doesn't really mean that one is a great artist that can do stuff in time and adopt to a certain pipeline...just like in my case...

Anyways,personally I wouldn't go to a collage that costs more than 20k.Even the cheap ones can teach you some nice tricks and techniques in MAX/MAYA/XSI,whatever and that's exactly what I need.I don't think that even the greatest colleges can teach you how to become a great artist,they just help you get rid of some limitations (not sure if this is the right word) that you may encounter while doing all this stuff on your own.

[McKronic]

I totally agree on this one.Take me for example.I think I can model pretty well now,but most of my models took me quite some time to create - more than a months for each model from my demo reel.This was mostly due to the laziness,but still...
With a degree and a strong portfolio an employee can clearly see what you are capable of, whereas having just some pretty models on your site doesn't really mean that one is a great artist that can do stuff in time and adopt to a certain pipeline...just like in my case...

Anyways,personally I wouldn't go to a collage that costs more than 20k.Even the cheap ones can teach you some nice tricks and techniques in MAX/MAYA/XSI,whatever and that's exactly what I need.I don't think that even the greatest colleges can teach you how to become a great artist,they just help you get rid of some limitations (not sure if this is the right word) that you may encounter while doing all this stuff on your own.

Alot of people might object to this but most instructors don't want to teach you all the things that took them years and years to learn they will teach you some nice tricks and alot of other things but they do hold back on what they tell you, I had an animation teacher who told the class straight up that he was not going to expose all of his really good tricks for building rigs due to the fact it took him years and years in the industry to get onto that level to learn such things. I do agree do not spend more then 20k even 20k is very high for what you actually will get out of the course.

[MonteCristo]

I disagree with all of you. Even the ones who agree with me. :p