How to make a game.

[lockdown2000]

First off, I would ask this be made a sticky as there are too many a thread about wannabe's thinking a 3d game is as easy as 1, 2, and 3.

Let's start off then shall we?
What is a game? Webster's says: "1 a (1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement"
And that is EXACTLY what it is.

What's the first thing you need to know?
You CANNOT start off thinking 3d games are easy to make. This is a common mistake among people just starting with 3d. There are a lot of parts that make up a game. You need to know how to program, you need to know how to model, you need to know how to texture, you need to know how to PROGRAM, and the last is you need to know how to PROGRAM.

Why is programming so necessary?
Well think about for a minute. You need to know how to make your game know how to make your character walk, talk and interact. 3d modeling doesn't DO that for you. CODE does that for you.

Next on the list, and I guess the main "tutorial" will start here, is
What programming language should I know, and how long will it take?
Well...You need to know a LOT of programming languages. Companies like blizzard and ea games or sierra don't hire programmers who know one language, unless they are exceptionally skilled and have actually ADVANCED the language. No they are looking for men and women who know plenty of programming languages and can be flexible between them.

What is the best Programming Language to know, and how should I go about starting?
Well I personally started with BASIC. Basic is a simple code language comprised of IF THEN ELSE OR END etc etc statements. Basic is well basic. If something happens then this happens. Have a TI calculator or a graphing calc? Those have BASIC. Start learning there. Search google for it. There is a ton of stuff, BASIC is quick and can do a lot of stuff.
BASIC LANGUAGE LEARNING TIME/MASTERING TIME: 1 1/2 YEARS.

Now, when you know basic fairly well, why don't you make a guessing game with it? Guessing games are GAMES as they are an "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement." Make it so it picks a random number from 1-100 and then if you guess to LOW or to HIGH it tells you which way to guess next. Then have it continually track how many times you have been guessing and at the end tell you how many tries it took you. Now for every one that doesn't know how to code, making something keep track of YOU may blow your mind, but it really isn't hard if you understand what your doing, that's why it should take you a good year to learn BASIC.

After that, why not try making a ROLE playing game with BASIC? With crude MAP graphics you can "access" and items you can pick up, and then make the ultra crude AI. (By the way if you haven¡¦t figured it out, this is sort of the path I took :)). So make it so, you have to "fight" monsters, and they attack you back, and you can use spells and they can use spells to. Learn how to make your game be able to SAVE and LOAD. Make a menu system.

After that, I'd say you're pretty much done with basic, and making all those games and stuff, should take you another couple months.

So what do I do after Basic is done?
Well¡Kyou pick another language to learn. Learn JAVA. Java isn¡¦t that different from BASIC, just a few more lines of code here and there. Again, learn how to make a guessing game, then maybe a role playing game. However, because Java is more advanced you can start learning some DRAWING skills. Experiment with trying to draw a simple 2d box, and then figure out how to make that box "3d" Once you've mastered that art why don't you try to make another game. Like BATTLESHIP. Have a user interface, more Complex AI, (I'll explain in a few) and graphical ships? Have it so you can add your ships, rotate them, and have the computer know when you are "trying" to cheat by stacking them or whatever. Then have the computer arrange his, and then start the game. Now by COMPLEX AI I mean, have it so when the computer gets a HIT, on its next turn it checks all surrounding squares until it gets another HIT, and then have it so, if the hit is below, above, or to the side, then instead of continually checking all the squares around it check the squares above, below, or to side depending on which way the originally second hit was discovered. And then maybe you will want to make a CHEAT system in which you click CHEAT and it quickly lights up where the enemy ships are so you can kill them and end the game. After ALL this, there is still more to do. You can learn how to make graphs, import data <-- VERY IMPORTANT, as you ALWAYS need to import data into GAMES! Etc etc.
Learning time for Java: 2-3 YEARS. Maybe more, cause I am still having fun with Java.

Ok, so I have BASIC and JAVA under my belt, can I start NOW?!
NO! How many languages are out there? Like 20-30???? You only know 2! I suggest learning more languages and in this order: C/C++, Visual Basic <-- that one strongly as most of your games I will be explaining later will be made easiest with it. ASM (Assembly) and you should have learned HTML sometime ago, and then learn FLASH. And if you know HTML learn, DHTML and XML. Those are languages that take away JAVA imports into HTML. So instead of making APPLETS for HTML you can write the JAVA strait into the HTML with some .class files running somewhere else. This is good as you do not have to one, load an applet, and wait for the applet to load .class files etc.
Time to learn all this: This is the bulk and really should take like 6-8 YEARS!

Now I am old, old man. Can I make a game now?
Well yes, depending on what kind of game. 3d? Not yet my friend. You have to start SMALL. I recommend FLASH for this, but I suppose you could use VB. Make a SIDE SCROLLER! Those are fun! Make a space ship side scrolling game or something. You should have enough coding knowledge to do this all by yourself now. After you make a scrolling game, try to make a scrolling game that includes a UP and DOWN. So you can climb ladders and push buttons and all that good stuff. After that try making a full blown out game. With an introduction, plot and levels.
Maybe after FLASH, you should go back to VB. Learn how to do the same things with VB and import data etc. VB is easy to use graphics and make games, because it uses Direct X to power the graphics of your games, which is very very nice.
Time to do this: 2-3 years.

I am on the verge of death; can I make a 3d game now?
Well, no :) Do you know how to 3d render? If you don¡¦t you have to learn. 3d rendering to ME is an art you can NEVER master, as it is continually advancing and changing. You can be very good but you can never be perfect.
Learning 3D: The rest of your life :)

Well once you have enough 3d under your belt, which is up to you, you can make a GAME! A 3d game! First off, you will need a 3d game engine. I would suggest NOT making your own as they are difficult to make. Very difficult, I would say don't even try. Find one on the internet, do a search with google. Once you find that engine, try figuring out how it works, look at the code and UNDERSTAND it. Once you have the game engine, make some models, texture those models, and make sure your game engine is capable of handling the amount of polys. Now get a CREW. You don't think Blizzard and Sierra make games by themselves do you? They have hundreds and thousands of workers making their games. So you need a good sized crew, 10-20 DEDICATED people. Well yeah, you now have set up a little business that is going to try to make a game. Have fun. Remember making a game isn't easy. Making a game takes a couple years in itself, and unless you're going for crap/demo game then it should take a couple months, but that is lame as you are just wasting your time. All in all, this process should take:
9-10 Years in itself.

So now you're probably 30-40 years old and are very mad at me for making you wait so long. By that time there is probably 4D or something. :-P Well that's how it goes. Thinking of making a game? Start with the BASICS and work your way through the ladder.

[rage]

AMEN!!

[lockdown2000]

Sorry, I fixed all those odd ASCII goof ups. Office XP and this thread dont like to agree :) O'well I fixed them.

[rage]

AMEN AMEN!

[Kit]

Hum...you might also need some other stuff besides the technicall skills, like some PR skills, leadership skills, empathy, etc.

Oh, and a very important thing: A GOOD IDEA FOR A GAME!.... no point in starting a game without one of those....

[Ivinia]

Lockdown - I loved your post! I've been programming since 1983 starting with Basic on the C64. Now I know several languages. For game programming, the most important is probably C\C++ with a dash of assembly where needed. (which means you need to know all of it because you never know just which dash you'll use.)

Anyway, one very important factor you left out - MONEY. It takes a lot of money to purchase the right tools and equipment. The compilers, the 3d modeling software, paint software, sound software, and a powerful PC to run them on. Then as you are learning how to use all that stuff, you still have to upgrade all of the above as you progress (i.e., the years go by learning)...a very, very expensive proposition.

[lockdown2000]

Lol, hm..money could help. LOL....feel free to enlighten new people. Add whatever you want. Yippie.

[Arius]

I have to say your wrong on the programing side of things. I know very little c++ and almost no ASM. I am proficient in Delphi and BlitzBasic only and my game is coming along fine. Screenies:

http://insane.chex-uk.net/Azrael2.jpg

http://insane.chex-uk.net/Azrael_Sara.jpg

It was written in like 6 hours. Fair enough i dont expect the actual game to be finished till 2005, but the main menu is fully functional and the first scene works fine. because the first scene is up and running i already have functions written to allow for animation/movement of chars and speech. I would agree that programming is the last thing to consider tho. At the moment i am lacking in 3d skills(is why i am here). I can do scenery/terrain e.t.c(hence the menu image) but not character modelling/skinning. If ne1 is interesting in helping with the 3d side of things jus give me a yell and i'll explain some more about the project ;).

:: Edit ::

I forgot the rest :p. I would agree with that a few years ago it would be wise to know C/C++ and ASM but now i dont think it is neccasary at all, unless you are working for a major software company that may be considering porting it to other platforms. Even then Delphi games can in theory be ported to Linux if OpenGl is used. Nowadays theres a wealth of languages out there specifically for writing games, be them 2d or 3d, i dont see why you would have to make it harder for yourself by insisting on writing it in C just because it is assumed to be the greatest language(it isn't, by far :p)

[Ivinia]

Arius - I would agree with you to a certain extent. I've been keeping my eye on Blitz Basic for a while now and have dozens of games that I downloaded written in it. Many of them are of a high quality. Don't be fooled though, it is still a programming language (actually, a 'scripting' language may be more accurate)with classes and functions built in for handling game related needs.

As Lockdown pointed out, you are better off NOT creating your own 3d engine and should use someone else's. In a sense, using Blitz Basic is using someone else's 'game engine'. ..and just for the record, the vast majority of BlitzBasic games fall into the retro remakes category. I have yet to see one that blows the doors off of what is possible.

The only area I disagree with Lockdown's assessment would have to be in regards to the amount of time you would have to spend learning these things, but I knew where he (she?) was coming from. Back in the day, we didn't have the same resources that are available now. If we had those same resources back then, I'm sure Lockdown would probably shorten up the timeline.

One of the HUGE hurdles that needed to be overcome back then was that these things you take for granted now were EXTREMELY guarded secrets in the 80's and early 90's.

So, yes, you can create a 'decent' game in record time nowadays with someone else's game engine, but those tend to be all the same and have a cookie-cutter feel to them. You will be limited by what you can do based on the limitations of the engine you are using.

I believe Lockdown's post was referring to the 'wannabees' who pop in with no knowledge of programming saying that they want to write the createst game in the world. That's a bit niave and needed a reality check...:roll:

[Arius]

Your right, and i do realise its just an engine. My point is that your average programmer cannot alone write the next generation of games. If you simply want to write a game and have a general idea of what you want then these languages/scripters are the way to go. I mean i could quite easily write a decent quake clone(provided i had the models) which at the end of the day is the kind of thing most amateurs want to do. Those pictures above were produced on a 233MMX with 64meg of ram and a kyro2 gfx chipset. So on my measly(pathetic :p) spec i'm getting quite good results. If you want to write the next mind boggling game that breaks all expectations then by all means learn to code. But even the best programmer in the world couldn't do it without a team of experts in the field of programming, storywriting and art. So unless your part of a software giant such as square or rare there is little to no point in learning to write games in C/C++, unless you actually want to go into the games industry in which case you'd be better off actually taking some kind of games creation in C++ course at university. If your like me and you just code for a hobbie and for entertainment, then software like blitzbasic is the way to go. Thats all i was trying to say lol :D

[rage]

Has anyone in this thread considered the mods? for instance counterstrike its just a modification to half life...and its soo cool...or the dungeon siege angine, or NWN these game are sohighly "moddable" that u can make a whole new game from it....of course doing a counterstrike out from half life requires a lot of skill and programming (scripting) knowledge....but its faster then designing a new game from scratch using someone elses engine....right?

[Ivinia]

Arius - Sorry if I left a negative impression. I totally agree with what you are saying. I'm also running solo here and having to 'do it all' is a real drag. I get caught up writing code, then realize I need to do more graphics, then I'll be cranking out the graphics, but want to see it how they will run with the code that hasn't been written yet. Back and forth I go, getting burned out in the process.

Personally, I think the guy who came up with Blitz Basic is a genius. Unfortunately, I have gotten so used to writting my own code that I would get frustrated using it whenever I ran into a limitation.

BTW, your screenshots looked cool... :) Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

[Arius]

Nah you didn't leave a negative immpression ;) Its jus its very hot an humid where i am an unfortunately if i cant learn box moddelling or get some1 to do it my game is dead :( so im a lil touchy lol. I've tried running through the tutorials section but im not very good at max so they're not of much help lol

[Ivinia]

Ha! I think you and I are at the same point. The tutorials make it look easy. I read that the easiest way to model using blueprints is to create 3 boxes and put an image on each (front, side, bottom, etc.) so that they will always be to scale with your box. Unfortunately, when I apply the texture (i.e., image) to the 3 boxes, I can't see the image, just the generic texture color. Frustrating...

Yes, I'm new to the 3d modeling thing using 3DS 2.5. I used to use RayDream Studio. I should probably splurge and get the latest version.

[Arius]

lol yea exactly!, i've got all the code sussed, its just the modelling now. I did manage to get through the "Box modelling a spaceship" tutorial in max5, but when it comes to characters i suck, even if i can eventually model one i've got to animate it :(

[lockdown2000]

Heh all, wow..so many post..
ok
"I believe Lockdown's post was referring to the 'wannabees' who pop in with no knowledge of programming saying that they want to write the createst game in the world. That's a bit niave and needed a reality check..." This is true, thats who I was targeting

And I am a HE :)

Arius: I realize you download GAME MAKERS etc, and have little knowledge, I was giving the basic layout and steps I personally believe one should take to make a decent game.


I would also like to say, Yes my "timeline" is extremly long but heh, its kinda the route I took and how long i took and still am taking at these things.


Sure there are game makers out there, why not download them? I have, and I have made a game or two, but I didnt find anything useful out of them. i personally believe that game makers take away the programming side, which is a good and bad thing. yes now you can just model and plug and chug. But programming lets you see WHATS making the game happen and how you could make your own if these game makers did not exist.

On another NOTE!: Why do people complain about making games? I personally "make" games, with LEVEL EDITORS :) Sure you will have the UT screen start up, but sooooo....doesnt bother me much, level editors are already there for you, the are GAME MAKERS in that they 1) allow you to work of a REAL GOOD GAME ENGINE and they allow you to be free, and add new characters etc. So you wouldnt have to go through the long hassel of making the game, just use their level editor :)

O'well, Yeah again, this was targeted at newbies, but heh, I know there are people that are a thousand times better than me and like I said, FEEL FREE TO ADD ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bash me if you want :) :-P Whatever, its alrighty, i say, if you can make a game, good for you. make one, and then let us play it :)

[Mike-3DT]

Nice topic lockdown - it's now stuck. I hope it will serve as a discussion point (which it already does seem to be,) as well as a heads up for all the "how do I make a game?" questions.

Arius & Ivinia - if it's any consolation guys, characters are about the hardest thing to model, period. Polygon & texture limits just make it that bit more interesting/excruciating/mind numbing (delete as appropriate.) Don't worry if you can't model character's right away - I've been doing realtime stuff for about 4 years or so & I've recently gotten to the point where I've realised the character's I've done are not quite good enough to get me a job in the games industry - so I have to work harder...
Regardless, if you did wish for help on a project, this is a good place to ask for collaborators, but please state straight off if the work will be paid or unpaid so not to confuse people.

[lockdown2000]

Thanks Mike, that acutally and honestly means a lot, even if was not intended to mean much but a compliment..which i took it as :)

[Arius]

Hey man i wasn't ragging on your "step by step" guide lol, and i agree with most of what you said. I was just trying to point out to people who might not have any coding knowledge, or the patience to learn, that they're are other ways. ;)

[lockdown2000]

No, I know you werent raggin on it, I was just saying yes, there are other ways, but FEEL FREE to bash me if you want :)

[Slinker]

her is a good character modeling tutorial for only for you Arius :)
if you have basic skills in 3dsm you can aplay this tut to 3dsm.

http://www.dosfx.com/tutorials/csgirl/default.asp

[Arius]

Thnx slinker, but i already got that one from the ms3d site ;)

[dhin]

Originally posted by Mike-3DT
I've been doing realtime stuff for about 4 years or so & I've recently gotten to the point where I've realised the character's I've done are not quite good enough to get me a job in the games industry - so I have to work harder...

Umm, sounds like me. Though I've only been at it 2 years with RTE Characters. (AND I was hired to do characters for simulations and visualization because of game characters I had done in my portfolio!?!) I look back at my first stuff here and laugh at how bad it really is. I keep improving them but still I don't think they are up to par with the game industry. Though there are different system requirements between gaming and RTE visualization.

My point being, (because I did have one,) after all that time you spend learning to program (I have a Bachelors in CS and I'm working on my Masters right now,) is that you will spend about as long learning 3d modeling. The ONLY way to get good at that (as I am sure all of us would agree,) is to practice.

If you want to build a game on you own, that means engine, models and all, give up on a life of any kind for the next 3 to 10 years. That's right, kiss your wife/kids/girlfreind/significant other/etc good-bye. Lock your self in a dark room with a lifetime supply of Twinkies and Mountain Dew (or Coffee, your choice) and forget about sleep. ALL you will be doing is programming and modeling for the next few years of your life. If you what a good game and don't what to spend ten years in a cave evolving into a light hating morlock, get a crew to help.

Very few people can produce a quality game on their own; Leonardo de Vinci might have been able to if he where alive today; Steven Hawkins probable could if he wasn't to busy picking the locks on God's desk drawers looking to get his hands on God's memoirs entitled "The Mysteries of the Universe: How I did it;" but I don't think very many others that fall in to this category.

THOUGH I think Lockdown nail that point quite well but I just wanted to beat the nail a little deeper. I also think most people who want to make games should consider mods. Rage is right, games right now a almost completely modable. Find one that suits you needs and start there.

[SniperMaster]

Originally posted by Arius
Thnx slinker, but i already got that one from the ms3d site ;)
yey another ms3d user :p:p:p:p:p

[Arius]

Hmm, i have maya 5 unlimited, maya 4.5 unlimited, max r3, max r4, max r5 and lightwave 3d 7. I tried ms3d because i assumed it would be better suited for simple low poly game models.

..:: edit ::..

not that i can use any of them lmao, i did manage to model a tree once, oh and a spaceship

[lockdown2000]

and you BOUGHT ALL THOSE!!!????????? Thats like at least 10+grand!

crazy...you rich punk :)

[Arius]

I'm not rich, my dad is :D

[Slinker]

Originally posted by SniperMaster
yey another ms3d user :p:p:p:p:p

Not really, i hate ms3d. I use 3dsm. Still it was a good charTutorial.

[dhin]

I started with Milkshape. But I soon went on to better things. Though ms3d still has it's uses.

[Zuela0]

Hey, I am a modeler/ex-coder that is current developing a game, a team and a company all at the same time.

I can’t imagine trying to do everything by myself. How could I? Why would I?

Perspective is a very important thing when you are trying to create something as universally appealing as a video game. If it was all on you to come with the Design, Art, Code (and I don’t think anyone mentioned the sound) there would be serious lacking quality in multiple categories, if not all.

And I am not ashamed to admit, I need a hell of allot more people than I already have.

So if anyone wants to work on the next great Video Game :D Send them in my direction, cuz the more the merrier!

Ano1Games@hotmail.com

[Eye]

I would like to say this is my first post, I was browsing through the website and stumpled upon this thread.

Anyway, I am glad to see something on this supject. It is not easy that is for sure. I can see where the time frame for learning programming would take a long time if you are learning it yourself. I am currently a computer Science major and in my third year and hope to one day make it in the video game industry. So far I have learned c/c++, java, and assembly in 2 years. I am now taking a course on openGL. The closest thing to a graphical game that i have done was a battleship and tic tac toe game in java. I have also done some little text based games in c++.

I would just like to point out that if i tried learning this all on my own. i can say it would have easily taken twice as long to learn what i did in 2 at a university, but I would have saved a hell of a lot of money :)

[mebhas]

well, so much about the rantings and whinings and the like about designing, modelling and programming. the first thing, i think, is the need of a storyline. what good is a game where u just go around shooting people without any specific purpose. at least get a goal or an idea of what the game should be doing.

well, so much so, has anybody even given the slightest of thought to develop the enemy ai, or are u all trying to get the easy way out by making the game nultiplayer only? developing ai is not the easy thing. in fact it is harder than learning programming... starting from basic as lockdown mentioned.

i have been programming since 1991, 12 years already. my programming path...

gw basic
qbasic
pascal
turbo c
visual basic 5
delphi
gnu c++
visual basic 6
visual c++
visual basic .net

i still find it confusing. some times, it gets real frustrating and i format my hard disk. then i get to reinstall again and find most of the backups were never made.(i guess, thats why i never get to post any wips:D )

so anyways ppl, before you get into game programming, be ready to work hard and get ready to work real hard. then think about the creativity u have.

fianlly, financial backup always helps:cool:

[shauryashaurya]

hey you guys forgot math!!!!

every single line of code that you need to write, every breath you take, every s*** you do MUST MUST MUST reek of math.
well if thats an exageration, then ask the guys who made 3dsm.

right from realtime shading and animation to basic drawing, graphics programming is an altogether a HUGE challenge in itself. Add to it algorithmics and data structure programming. Then comes thorough knowledge of graphics engines like DirectX and OpenGL (I also heard a rumor abt. microsoft coming up with a "Farenhiet" which combines both ogl and dx).
I am not even half way there, I just hope this forum helps.

[nendo]

i don't think thats the way to make games. it's a way but i'm sure there are other ways. i know someone thats easly makeing a game and all he knows is vb and he realy aint that good at it

[scott99]

well, why not do what i do, just hire someone that already knows all that :D

J/K :D:D:D:D

actually me and my bro are doing internet based games, but we are trying to learn enough to step to the next level so its not just internet based :)

so ill let my bro know that we need to go to Basics from where we are at....
[cant you tell we are far behind] ROFL


anyway, will be fun in about 10 years *sigh*

[nendo]

yeh. that sounds like a web based rpg game. like anaroch.

[hanzo]

lots of good info here!!.. :D

[EMR]

Hi, everyone
This is my first post, and I have to say I'm very happy to find such good lines and such wise words in this thread. Since I'm still a student, I think I can't really add anything but a few questions about the whole gaming thing:
You all have been talking about making videogames, and making people enjoy with games (I think we all agree that's the point of videogames), but why hasn't anybody mentioned "the old 2D gaming"? I know we're in a 3D post, and that's OK... I think this is a bigger affair than just not mentioning
Why can't I see in the market 2D videogames like there used to be in the 90s?
What has become of gamers? why they have forgotten graphic adventures? Hey!, LucasArts hasn't always been doing Star Wars... :p I can still remember Day of the Tentacle, and Sam & Max, and Monkey Island, and lots of good games which had apparently been forgotten. And not only LucasArts', how about Sierra and its Space Quest, Larry,...?
And beyond the graphic adventures are the interests of those who I call "gamers". Those who play videogames have changed in this last decade so strongly... Maybe thinking now seems boring, and 2D graphics now seems little attractive and impresive... I don't know. But I can't think about making a good plot for my videogames without these questions in my head... I hope someone can help me with these :)

[Guilherme]

well well well.
Ok people. I know 3d game programing is not for everybody but, lockdown2000 do you realy belive we need more or lass 20 years for learn 10 languages? Do you?
ok I'm 16 and for 4 years I am interested for programming, I belive it is realy good for express our imagination, so as everyone that begins without know anything, I found a book into a library that sad, "C programing", ok What do I think, "Cool, it's possible program a hard drive", good, or god, LOL, I beggined reading this and I found onto 3rd or 4th page what C is realy, I thot "Good, C it is not a hard drive name, it is to a programming language, cool", as you are thinking I wrote the book from the first untill the last page. But there was a big problem. I DIDN'T HAVE A COMPUTER, you ask, How to know a programing language as C without a computer, the answer is too easyer, for me it was realy impossible, but, i din't stop programing, I both a computer and I beggined creating scripts for mIRC, cool it isn't? at the same time and just because mIRC language is too easy, I study C/C++, now with a PC.
I red somethings about Visual Basic, Java and JavaScript. I studed HTML and Flash. For now I'm at the first year of programing cours, as you can say, I'm learning now PASCAL, blody crap language, :p , but I never stoped trying to do things in C.
Cool is know that I know (+/-) the basicone ingen of C, but I never red anything about graphics. Does anyone have some PDF's or HTML's or DOC's files to sand me? Ok you say, searsh on GOOGLE, I realy did it.
but one more thing lockdown2000 how do I import a model for Pascal or C??????????

Belive my next language to know will be Pithon. What do you think so about it???:???: :???: :???:

[olympus]

thanks for this informative thread 'lockdown2000' :D

given everybody else's programming history, i am curious, am i the only person that started with visual basic .net?

[Jason-Lavoie]

HA HA HA my first programming expereince was with QBASIC, he heh e then to VBASIC, leanred ALOT from that!

[Sathe]

Now i may know NOTHING about how to make a game but a few of my friends in year 10 came up with the maddness redeamer game in just a couple of months using flash, and im pretty sure they havent been learning how to use 20-30 languages for the past 10 years, but anyway i have learnt alot from your post so thanks, but i cant imagine it can take THAT long to become a proffesional.

[Arius]

hehe, i've been away from this forum for ages. Glad too see this thread is still going. The last time i posted in this thread i was using a stand-alone "game engine" called blitz3d. I've since moved onto the Truevision3d SDK, which is more ofa library. you have too write your own game code e.t.c which makes it far more flexible. As for the old "You have too develop" in c++. I still think this is a very stupid comment. I would however like too add that being able to code in c++ is a great advantage. It is NOT the be all and end all. I think the vast majrity of people who have posted in this thread have essentially blown that statement out of the water. I know a lot of coders currently writing games. The general consensus is that c++ is far too complex for games development, especially in large teams. It is the BEST for games development imo, but it is not an ideal evnironment for it. I'm using delphi, which as far as im concerned is a far better lanaguage than c++. This is of course purely an opinion. Regardless, the sdk i am using, the next version of it, will be completely written in c++. So the backbone too my game will be c++. If you are intended too start from scratch using pure directx api and you are a solo developer. Then really, it doesn't matter what language your using, because you'll probably fail :p ;)

[oneth]

What kind of game programming are we talking?

If the subject is about making a game for having fun, then that is the correct way. But if you want to become a *true* game programmer/maker, you surely have to take another path.

Pre-build engines, or 'game makers' aren't a good choice. First, they do limit your game, you cannot make 'everything you want'. Second You should learn how to develop a little engine by yourself cos it will help you a lot to understand how it works. It won't take more than a few months if you alredy know how to program in c/c++ and have a good OpenGL/directX reference (NeHe tutorials are a good start point).

When you have your engine, you should start thinking how you will code your game. Most game developers use a 'self' script language to code levels, ia, and every other aspect of the game.

UnrealEngine uses UnrealScript as scripting language. Blizzard games, like Starcraft, uses a script language to define every ia strategies.

Now you have to code a few levels, maybe only one, in your scripting language.

At same time, design your models, maps, weapons, sounds...

Build all togheter and your have a little game.

Making a real game only takes more and more people to work on it. Don't try to make a DoomIV alone ;) But, as said, try to make a little game, following all the steps: coding, modelling, sound, etc.


What I use:

- Programming: C or C++. Java is good too. Visual Basic NO, think on the good games: starcraft, quake, unreal, half-life... anyone coded with VB? No...

- API/SDK: most actual games uses directX as main API/SDK. I prefer OpenGL + OpenAL + other non propietary libs. But you should test all if you have time. Profesionals do test every new version that comes out.

With this you can start the game. Later youl'll need artist: 2D, 3D, sound. but... eh! i'm the programmer, you all are the artists ;)

Hope this helps.

NOTE: sorry for my bad english :( Spanish user ;)

[Arius]

No, i disagree. In order to develop games in a professional manner you do NOT need to write your own engine. Infact it would be stupid to do so. Look at the majority of games on the market. Most use third party engines. Not all obvioisly, but most. This is because it is quicker than writing your own. You have too write your own games engine. But not your own graphics engine. Why would you want too reinvent the wheel?. Why write octree's, lightmap support, file type support, dynamic lighting, billboarding, particles, vertex/pixel shaders and lots more, then on top of all that you would have to write a game engine on top of it. This is idiotic when a lot of graphics libraries do this for you. An you can just concentrate on writing game code, like ai, file i/o and custom classes.

I will agree that knowing some directx/opengl is an advantage. Otherwise you might get lost when using d3dvectors an so forth. But expecting hobbyists or small teams to write an entire engine for a game is foolhardy. The project would never be finished. As stated before i'm using a graphics library. NOT a game engine. Game engines like dark basic and blitz3d are not flexible enough for serious development. But expecting people, or a small dev team, too write an entire engine for a commercial quality game from scratch is, in my opinion, stupid.

On a side note:

Anybody who knows me well knows i loathe vb. However, i have seen a LOT of vb D3D apps and games written in vb that are complex and that have 600+ fps. Vb is poor for math's and is not imo "ideal" for 3d development. But it can be done if the coder is good enough.

[oneth]

Well... it's true that if you don't plan to work as game-programer is a waste of time to code a new engine. But if you want to, you should learn all the way, from botton (basic api's) to top (pre-build engines). All the steps are important.

Only for hobby you shouldn't go for a home-made engine, because you don't need to waste time on it, as you said. Just take one of the existing ones and use it. But if you enjoy it one day you'll find that you need to go back to the root and choose a self-made engine.

So I see two ways (as I say on my previous post):
- Hobby: take it easy.
- More than a hobby : try all the game proccess steps.

If you only want to see your art (2D or 3D) in a game, take a look at the 'huge' pack of free games who need artist. Maybe the game your are planning is alredy half-done and needs your help ;)

About VB. VB isn't a bad language at all. But VB programming can 'degenerate' in bad habits. Also for so long was the 'dark side' of programming. Anyway VB is mostly used for 'quick' appications, mora than for big projects like a game should be. But there are exceptions...

[Nappa]

what i dont understand is when they skin models do they add a light soucer in order to paint it or what

[dave3d]

Hello there!

I'm one of the 4 swedish students (friends aswell) that are developing a game for the sole purpose of learning how to create a game. We are making it from scratch with our own OpenGL engine. This is a hobby project, but we're still serious on making it.

After 8 months we finally have our first physics demo (It'll be done tomorrow (sunday,10/4 2004) and after that we are going to start expanding it with light sources, ai, models, textures etc.
The game's name is Scripture of Saynoir, it's a rpg. We stay in touch by msn, irc and phone and the game is well organised.

If you want to support us, please visit #saynoir at quakenet (IRC)
Our website will be up next month...

[orgee]

let me drop a few cents on this:

i started programming age 13, started with qbasic, after 3 months of mastering it, i made a chrono trigger clone, i still have it on one of my disks but it will only run on a really old computer (486dx2) and you need qbasic to run it.

then i started learning pascal & C and to be honest with you, i know this might NOT be possible for some people, but i learned them pretty damn quick. C i learned in about 6 hours reading a book which i dont know where it is now called Learn C in 24 Hours but i did it quick, and same with Pascal, i learned by reading the manuals that my dad's friend gave to me.

I dont know how I did it but im putting it on the study which scientists say that young kids brains absorb things faster because they are young, although i am trying to break that limit.

so after about a year i know qbasic, pascal, c / c++ AND i learned how to do assembly language. by then ive also made my own graphics libraries using assembly language and a mix of C AND i was working on a 3D graphics Api.

These are all on DOS and I believe i still have them btw.

When i look back and find how i did all of that so quick I found that my "mode of thinking" back then had NO LIMIT. I saw I needed to make a sprite paint program in Qbasic for my Chrono Trigger clone and I made it. I needed a FAST 2d graphics library cuz i had an old computer (486 dx 2 66mhz 4mb ram) and I made it.

IT TAKES ALOT OF HARD WORK to become a good game programmer especially if youre planning on doing it all on your own. Why would I recommend doing it that way? Simple: so you can have experience in ALL ASPECTS of game development. The more you know how the whole thing works, the better you are not only as a single person team, but ALSO as part of a multi-person team.

Unfortunately back then my math wasnt good enough to continue my 3d api so I was stuck with a basic 3d api with flat shading capabilities and not even a z-buffer but rather a qsort way of rendering objects. But hey, Im happy and I know what I can do and if I wanted to do it again, I can.

YOU CAN DO IT TOO! Dont limit yourself with anything. Find inspirations like i did, and back then they were Michael Abrash and John Carmack. (oh the days of looking through his Wolf3D code..err Wolf2.5D :)

Inspire yourself, dont give up, work hard, and when you compile and no errors, PLAY HARDER!

[george.vas]

IMO

I don't see anything wrong from trying to create a game totally by yourself. However I think I can count one hand the number of people that are both creative and technical. Coding interest me and I am not that bad it but my passion is in 3d modeling.

Maybe I am old fashion but I think you should do one thing and do it well. I believe that someone who spends there life doing 3d modeling is a lot better than someone that models and codes, same goes the other way as well.

I am always looking for some fun side jobs so feel free to shoot me what your looking for and I will contact you back if I can help.

[[X]treme]

well... by yourself you can spend a little while making nifty 2D arcade style-java game

or you could spend 25 years making a high-quality mid-poly fully 3D rpg by yourself

I really believe, as PolyMarauder said, that you should pick one thing and do it well, and let the rest of a team focus on other areas

that way, it gets done faster and done better

win win situation for the most part

[dave3d]

I agree with [X]Treme :)

Organization is a very vital part of the project. One guy should be the Project Leader imo. If you don't know exactly how to manage a project, I suggest borrowing a project leader book at your library.

[orgee]

Alright, let me make some adjustments on what I said.

You guys are definitely right though. Having a team and having each individual focused on type of skill would increase development speed.

But for a project leader, or technical director, its good to have experience in all of the areas. You dont have to be really skilled with it, but you should know some of the main areas about something just so you can manage your team better and provide some assistance to a member in case of problems. But the best thing is that it just gives you an overall "eye" about what is going on as a whole.

Tips for aspiring game developers:

Take it step by step starting from the basics, start with projects like classic games (pacman, pong, etc) and as you learn more and more, advance to the next level. Remember, there is a load of information available online and on books and the amount of ways you have communication with fellow game programmers is just right there. Nothing in game programming is impossible, its all logic, rules and what not. And dont forget the creative side too, put some originality into your projects. Even a simple game pacman can be tweaked so much. Also, dont forget to download source code from other people and study them. Most of the time, the source will tell you how to contact the authors, so spend a few minutes to email them if you have questions. And last but not least, play lots of games, enjoy them, and learn from them.

[Mr_Ridd]

Ok now on to the programming aspect of it. If you know how to program in C++ you can jump right into 3D game programming. You will still need to now a lot though. Go to www.ogre3d.org. It's a completely free 3D engine. It's so easy to do things in there as well.

I got it and I managed to import a 3D model with animation in about 60 seconds flat, with very little knowledge of how the engine worked.

[chilliodude]

seeing as your all on the subject of making games what is the average poly limit for vehicle and character models(organic and inorganic) has anyone made a complete 3d game if yes i'd love to see it:)

[ROB]

Hello chilliodude,
The polygon count per car in Gran Turismo 4 is between 2,000-3,000.
In Half Life 2 characters will be made with up to 5,000 polygons!

[maurok]

Hello guys,
Me and another two friends are in the last year of computer engineer, and we're developing, as a graduation project, an Engine to help people who wants to make a game (more specifically a 3D RPG, such as final fantasy). it'll make the programming work A LOT easier, you'll stil need to make a little programming, but just some basic stuff for you game, the hard part will be already made.
Now we're almost finishing the engine and we'd like to make a game using it to prove that it works and help us in finding problems. after this we'll release it as an open source project on the web.
I are now trying to find some people to help us with the artistic part. we mainly need some monsters model with some animations.
if anyone wants to help us, please email me at mauro.kesselman@poli.usp.br .

Thanks
Mauro

[NiVaG]

where would be the best place to start learning these languages, or what language should i learn first?

[Ceccotti]

Good break down but the time frame is much to large. It does not and will not in most cases take that long to learn all that stuff. I would say at the max 5 years to be fairly skilled. The first time its hard later its just like learning different ways to do things.

[CommandoSR]

Originally posted by ROB
In Half Life 2 characters will be made with up to 5,000 polygons!

Alyx, that female character that fights occassionally on your side, is 8000 polygons.

[donekanozar]

This thread is cool and informative :up:

[Dreamcast]

First off, I would ask this be made a sticky as there are too many a thread about wannabe's thinking a 3d game is as easy as 1, 2, and 3.

Let's start off then shall we?
What is a game? Webster's says: "1 a (1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement"
And that is EXACTLY what it is.

What's the first thing you need to know?
You CANNOT start off thinking 3d games are easy to make. This is a common mistake among people just starting with 3d. There are a lot of parts that make up a game. You need to know how to program, you need to know how to model, you need to know how to texture, you need to know how to PROGRAM, and the last is you need to know how to PROGRAM.

Why is programming so necessary?
Well think about for a minute. You need to know how to make your game know how to make your character walk, talk and interact. 3d modeling doesn't DO that for you. CODE does that for you.

Next on the list, and I guess the main "tutorial" will start here, is
What programming language should I know, and how long will it take?
Well...You need to know a LOT of programming languages. Companies like blizzard and ea games or sierra don't hire programmers who know one language, unless they are exceptionally skilled and have actually ADVANCED the language. No they are looking for men and women who know plenty of programming languages and can be flexible between them.

What is the best Programming Language to know, and how should I go about starting?
Well I personally started with BASIC. Basic is a simple code language comprised of IF THEN ELSE OR END etc etc statements. Basic is well basic. If something happens then this happens. Have a TI calculator or a graphing calc? Those have BASIC. Start learning there. Search google for it. There is a ton of stuff, BASIC is quick and can do a lot of stuff.
BASIC LANGUAGE LEARNING TIME/MASTERING TIME: 1 1/2 YEARS.

Now, when you know basic fairly well, why don't you make a guessing game with it? Guessing games are GAMES as they are an "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement." Make it so it picks a random number from 1-100 and then if you guess to LOW or to HIGH it tells you which way to guess next. Then have it continually track how many times you have been guessing and at the end tell you how many tries it took you. Now for every one that doesn't know how to code, making something keep track of YOU may blow your mind, but it really isn't hard if you understand what your doing, that's why it should take you a good year to learn BASIC.

After that, why not try making a ROLE playing game with BASIC? With crude MAP graphics you can "access" and items you can pick up, and then make the ultra crude AI. (By the way if you haven¡¦t figured it out, this is sort of the path I took :)). So make it so, you have to "fight" monsters, and they attack you back, and you can use spells and they can use spells to. Learn how to make your game be able to SAVE and LOAD. Make a menu system.

After that, I'd say you're pretty much done with basic, and making all those games and stuff, should take you another couple months.

So what do I do after Basic is done?
Well¡Kyou pick another language to learn. Learn JAVA. Java isn¡¦t that different from BASIC, just a few more lines of code here and there. Again, learn how to make a guessing game, then maybe a role playing game. However, because Java is more advanced you can start learning some DRAWING skills. Experiment with trying to draw a simple 2d box, and then figure out how to make that box "3d" Once you've mastered that art why don't you try to make another game. Like BATTLESHIP. Have a user interface, more Complex AI, (I'll explain in a few) and graphical ships? Have it so you can add your ships, rotate them, and have the computer know when you are "trying" to cheat by stacking them or whatever. Then have the computer arrange his, and then start the game. Now by COMPLEX AI I mean, have it so when the computer gets a HIT, on its next turn it checks all surrounding squares until it gets another HIT, and then have it so, if the hit is below, above, or to the side, then instead of continually checking all the squares around it check the squares above, below, or to side depending on which way the originally second hit was discovered. And then maybe you will want to make a CHEAT system in which you click CHEAT and it quickly lights up where the enemy ships are so you can kill them and end the game. After ALL this, there is still more to do. You can learn how to make graphs, import data <-- VERY IMPORTANT, as you ALWAYS need to import data into GAMES! Etc etc.
Learning time for Java: 2-3 YEARS. Maybe more, cause I am still having fun with Java.

Ok, so I have BASIC and JAVA under my belt, can I start NOW?!
NO! How many languages are out there? Like 20-30???? You only know 2! I suggest learning more languages and in this order: C/C++, Visual Basic <-- that one strongly as most of your games I will be explaining later will be made easiest with it. ASM (Assembly) and you should have learned HTML sometime ago, and then learn FLASH. And if you know HTML learn, DHTML and XML. Those are languages that take away JAVA imports into HTML. So instead of making APPLETS for HTML you can write the JAVA strait into the HTML with some .class files running somewhere else. This is good as you do not have to one, load an applet, and wait for the applet to load .class files etc.
Time to learn all this: This is the bulk and really should take like 6-8 YEARS!

Now I am old, old man. Can I make a game now?
Well yes, depending on what kind of game. 3d? Not yet my friend. You have to start SMALL. I recommend FLASH for this, but I suppose you could use VB. Make a SIDE SCROLLER! Those are fun! Make a space ship side scrolling game or something. You should have enough coding knowledge to do this all by yourself now. After you make a scrolling game, try to make a scrolling game that includes a UP and DOWN. So you can climb ladders and push buttons and all that good stuff. After that try making a full blown out game. With an introduction, plot and levels.
Maybe after FLASH, you should go back to VB. Learn how to do the same things with VB and import data etc. VB is easy to use graphics and make games, because it uses Direct X to power the graphics of your games, which is very very nice.
Time to do this: 2-3 years.

I am on the verge of death; can I make a 3d game now?
Well, no :) Do you know how to 3d render? If you don¡¦t you have to learn. 3d rendering to ME is an art you can NEVER master, as it is continually advancing and changing. You can be very good but you can never be perfect.
Learning 3D: The rest of your life :)

Well once you have enough 3d under your belt, which is up to you, you can make a GAME! A 3d game! First off, you will need a 3d game engine. I would suggest NOT making your own as they are difficult to make. Very difficult, I would say don't even try. Find one on the internet, do a search with google. Once you find that engine, try figuring out how it works, look at the code and UNDERSTAND it. Once you have the game engine, make some models, texture those models, and make sure your game engine is capable of handling the amount of polys. Now get a CREW. You don't think Blizzard and Sierra make games by themselves do you? They have hundreds and thousands of workers making their games. So you need a good sized crew, 10-20 DEDICATED people. Well yeah, you now have set up a little business that is going to try to make a game. Have fun. Remember making a game isn't easy. Making a game takes a couple years in itself, and unless you're going for crap/demo game then it should take a couple months, but that is lame as you are just wasting your time. All in all, this process should take:
9-10 Years in itself.

So now you're probably 30-40 years old and are very mad at me for making you wait so long. By that time there is probably 4D or something. :-P Well that's how it goes. Thinking of making a game? Start with the BASICS and work your way through the ladder.






Im learning 3d programming and its not all that hard. And guess what im 14 almost 15. Im "ok" at modeling and have a team and were making a game.

[unwindyoursoul]

cool man :):)

[Dreamcast]

Thanks

[Hilm]

Engines :

Ogre3d - requires C++/C programming

Realm Crafter - Currentally in beta, for MMO's only, only requires basic knoledge of scripting

DarkBasic - dont even go there it's easy but it's crap.

Explorations 32 Bit - A very good iscroetric 2d game maker with little peogramming needed, but only good for iscometric games, does support online, mmo and off line...

[Hilm]

Im learning 3d programming and its not all that hard. And guess what im 14 almost 15. Im "ok" at modeling and have a team and were making a game.

lol i'm 15 and know the basics of C++, Direct X 3d and i can model and animate lol (still improving programming though lol).

HOWEVER if i'd truly advise u start on a 2d type game, mainly as:
1)you find out whose actually determined as if they dont stick around long enough to make a 2d game... they have no chance at 3d lol...
2)you can find out how good they are at modelling from teh 2d renders... then you can assign them jobs using that info...
3)You want to start a company u need to build a reputation, a good 2d game is a nice way to do this (eg blizzard made 2 2d games before trying 3d and when they did release 3d they were succesfull due to there reputation) And you have more chance of making a giid 2d game than u have of making a good 3d 1...


Just some advice after having been in and out of projects for about 5 years lol... (unless u know all of they in real life aint aint juts doing on line)...

[Dreamcast]

Engines :

Ogre3d - requires C++/C programming

Realm Crafter - Currentally in beta, for MMO's only, only requires basic knoledge of scripting

DarkBasic - dont even go there it's easy but it's crap.

Explorations 32 Bit - A very good iscroetric 2d game maker with little peogramming needed, but only good for iscometric games, does support online, mmo and off line...

DarkBasic Rocks so shut the **** up. People I reccomend DarkBasic Pro.

Link: www.darkbasic.com

Also one more thing, dont dis- darkbasic ever. If you do I will have to prove its quality.
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

If your a beginner you cant start out c++. You have to start out with the basic's. And plus there is this game featured in pc gamers magazine made by darkbasic because of its quality,w00t, w00t, in your face.

[Hilm]

ok i'll admit dark basic is ok TO LEARN BASICS eg sine rules for programming later etc HOWEVER it supports like 16000 polys in a screen at a time tops meaning very low poly well everthing... It also lacks some advanced features and is not open source...

[hoaifanh]

hey every body .i love 3d but i have some problem when i create animation in Maya.So i hope some one can help me .Please contact with me :hoaifanh@gmail.com

[ROB]

Hello, Darkbasic pro is a good starting place for a noob. You can learn the theory and have a lot of functions that you would normally have to program yourself.
But if you want to impress the head honchos and land yourself a job with a games company, your going to have to learn C++ and use DirectX, OpenGL or make your own Graphics API (if you want to go the programming route).
Companies would rather see a candidate specialize on a topic (e.g. special effects, game play, physics, game tools etc), than see a cheap knockoff of other games.
OpenGL will score you more brownie points because it is cross platform unlike directX which is windows only (kinda useful now the xbox is doing better). Yes there are pros and cons for each one, so you can go research yourself and agree with me later.
A lot of companies now are using middleware packages like renderware which will allow you to program a game and then compile it for multiple platforms (PS2,XBOX,GC,PC,PSP) with minor adjustments here and there!
If you want to be a games programmer start with the basics and work your way up. As Hilm suggested start with 2D you'll learn everything you need to know about game logic, AI, Performance and so on and when you’re ready just add another dimension, it is that easy, and then you can worry about squeezing that extra polygon at a 120FPS.
Later guys

[Neox]

eg blizzard made 2 2d games before trying 3d and when they did release 3d they were succesfull due to there reputation

LOL!
:haha:

[Ali.Kheradmand]

i didn't read any of these things you right.i just want to know about GAME ENGINE and how can i export a model to a GAME ENGINE.

[Arius]

i didn't read any of these things you right.i just want to know about GAME ENGINE and how can i export a model to a GAME ENGINE.


Very much dependant on the engines pipeline. Some use custom file formats, whilst others support primitive or standard formats - like .x or .3ds.

**Edit

I haven't actually been here for a while, i've got a nice gallery of work going - heres some shots of my stuff.

[ Heres a cube, with a transparency shader ]
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/custom_002.sized.jpg

[ Shot from my tech demo for the graphics lib I use ]
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/meadow2_early_3.sized.jpg

[ This is a normal mapped "rancor", kindly donated by a friend of mine( mod: zb2, anim: maya ) ]
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/Untitled_1.sized.jpg

[ Foliage mapping function I wrote, uses grayscale maps ]
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/plants2.sized.jpg

[ Couple shots from my tech demo "meadow", throwing the glowBall(tm) uses realtime physics sim courtesy of "Newton Dynamics" ]

http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/scape18.sized.jpg
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/scape20.sized.jpg

[ This is a shot from meadow2, I was testing a glow hint shader, which had little effect other than killing my framerate :( ]
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/idle_test.sized.jpg

[Freespace-3DT]

Wow, that last shot is superb, Arius, except for the plain sky.

[Arius]

Thanks man, looks like I need to rehost my gallery. Current host is a little too flaky. :(

[Nappa]

Arius i cant see any of the pic you posted

[Arius]

Arius i cant see any of the pic you posted

Yea, unfortunately the host they were on is down, an has been down for a few weeks. I have a new host, but I haven't been able to get into contact with the host of the old one to regain my gallery. :cry:

[Arius]

I thought i'd post these here. Didn't really want to clutter the forum with a non-cg thread as such. These are from my editor, Mage, which I am currently developing. Its at version 10 and has been around for a while. Its going to be used for a sci-fi themed physics based FPS tech demo, I know, real original :P. The character models you see were bought from cubix studios apart from the big beast thing, that was created by a friend in zb2->maya. The environments( lol ), the cubes I should say, were done by me. All the texture work on them in the final 2 shots is mine. I've been learning ps :D. As you can see in the final shots, i'm slowly moving to a full DX based UI for fullscreen editing.

*click for 1280x1024*

(These are chronoligical development wise)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_2_002.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_2_002.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_3.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_3.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_4.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_4.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg5.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg5.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg106.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg106.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_7.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_7.jpg)
http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_8.sized.jpg (http://tv3dfilez.ath.cx/gallery/albums/Arius/mg10_8.jpg)
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1148/mg109sized1ws.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7596/mg1098qc.jpg)
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/7135/mg1010sized3oe.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7514/mg10109zf.jpg)

[Johny]

looks good ! but just because every title over uses specular bloom doesnt mean you should make the same mistake :P

[Arius]

looks good ! but just because every title over uses specular bloom doesnt mean you should make the same mistake :P

:P

Can be enabled/disabled, and controlled using emissive maps.

[rts_gamedev]

Sorry to be a killer here, but you dont need to be programmer todo a game and there are many prototyping tools if you arent one. In fact, a single person project is most likly to fail. You need to make your game prior to implementing it .. that is, a clear and sharp gamedesign which brings forward the center points and interesting choices making up the game. This alone is a very demanding task.

The fag in the industry of game design is using the method of mark cerny and his myth busting approach to game design. I suggest you look up cernys 'myth vs method' to get some good clear idea of what is needed while developing your game.

I cant see from the postings in the mod teams that most of these clearly need game design knowledge as much of these dont have a clue of where they are heading.

Generally, if you are a novice experienced team (i presume thats why a thread like this is read), you need to write down everything possible within the bounderies put format by cerny. The more you write down, the more inconsistency can be eradicated and the more you learn the mindset of the team.

I would suggest people looking up "fullerton"'s gamedesign workshop book for additional ideas. its very low level writting and is rather interesting and helpfull.

But to people wanting to make a game, the bare minimum you need to write down before starting iterative preproduction exploration of ideas (seeking interesting choices and gameplay) would be to nail down 3xC's .. .Camera, Control and Charachter.

Camera: How is the view of the world
Control: How is basic navigation
Character: How do you control gameobjects ... what do you control etc etc (varies alot from gametype to gametype)

With above put in place, you have 'some' foundation for dreaming in same direction and can start iterativly approaching a gamedesign.

You start out with gamedesign, story and ideas which are very fuzzy and write them down to try to clearily understand the ideas yourself and share them among teams. Some novice people thing they have it all in thier head, but thats where you fail as team and thus shouldnt even try to engange in working with other people if you intend to develope the best ideas .. write down, share, critisize nad most of all play test as early as possible before your waste too much time on your idea.

If the idea is ****, fix it or kill it, dont protect it because its your own idea, work on it and find a way to generate interesting choices to the player playing it. To get to a reality check fast, its very feasible to prototype as early as possible, using feedback from testers outside your team. Its really a smash in the head when someone plays your 'wonder game'-idea prototype and dont like it because ideas is not working and maybe even controls are not logic, but rather this than wasting time on a broken idea!

In short, the key to geeting to a final gamedesign a game which you can 'sell' to others is to write base 3xC's down, and playtest a prototype while iterativly working on micro design document (preliminary docs) until you have game design that is internally complete. When prototype documents core gameplay works, you can up the scale of your project by making a full blown design doc (often known as macro design) and seek to finalize the game in a more traditional linear project management style.

However, if you have no trackrecord in the industry, you should be aware that ideas dont sell. Finished products do. The more finished the more likly it is you can get a deal as its all about reducing risk for distributors.

There is no game design selling without prototype, this is an era which ended, and even more so, there is no such thing as 'this _will_ be great'. Either your game is great or else you should work more on it. Its all about trust and its not trust worthy if people present little and promose much .. it should be other way around with the mind et of 'what you see is what you got'.

Last but not least, i would suggest that a project manager, weather employed in normal project or game developement should NOT be engaged with core technology or core problems of project as this will cloud his abbility to lead ! NEver let project be limited by your own skills .. broaden your mind.

anyways, cheers lads, this was just my personal thoughts.


Brian

ps. if your interested in joining a gamedev team, we look for skilled low poly designers for an ww2 rts engine. leave me a note.

[madmenno]

You people have a very nice project going on, keep it up!


3)You want to start a company u need to build a reputation, a good 2d game is a nice way to do this (eg blizzard made 2 2d games before trying 3d and when they did release 3d they were succesfull due to there reputation) And you have more chance of making a giid 2d game than u have of making a good 3d 1...

Blizzard made, WC1, WC2 and starcraft and diablo 1 and 2 wich where al 2D except for cinamatics. Now they own 2 3D games, Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft. Naming blizzard is a very bad example for this, blizzard is a legend in korea. It helped boost the economy and people working there extremely dedicated to there work. Blizzard is the one company that will never come under the name of EA becaus of this dedication.

Another cool fact, you know if you work several years at blizzard you get a real sword and shield (blizzard style) and if you work even longer you'll get an fully working, fully sized armor :D.

[Deadmeat]

Personally, I quite like the 3dgamestudio A6 package - it's reasonably priced, and great to learn on. C-script in a simplified programming language. The model editor (MED) is useless but you can export from MAX, so all in all it ain't bad IMHO

[Inkybro]

Hey everyone.

I don't completely agree with your statements, lockdown. I understand the point you're trying to get across but you've made many false statements. You CAN make a game with knowledge of only one language, as long as the language is capable of making a game. Knowing other languages is ONLY a bonus.

Secondly, Java is hardly like BASIC. It uses a C/C++ syntax structure, with symbols instead of words. Big leap. From BASIC I'd suggest learning Visual Basic, and THEN moving on to C/C++ based languages (of course, there's no right way to learn languages, as long as you learn them).

Thirdly, you suggest learning Visual Basic thoroughly, as it's easier to make games in. This is true (I know Visual Basic very well), but there's a catch. Visual Basic is slow. It's a common fact. Don't get me wrong, you can program games in it, there have been games programmed in it, and I have programmed games in it that run just fine. On the hobbyist end it's a great language to program in, but your post seems to be fluctuating between two ambitions, a hobbyist lifestyle and a professional lifestyle. You suggest learning many languages because game companies see that as a plus, but what if someone just wants to throw a game together?

Once again, I understand the point you're making. Game programming isn't the easiest thing, but it definitely is NOT as hard as you make it out to seem. You can easily learn the necessary things in a year or two and be making games to learn new stuff along the way. I know this from experience.

I'm personally moving onto game coding in C/C++, as I do have ambitions to be a professional game developer, and this is the most widely accepted language amongst companies. For all the hobbyists, stick to what you like, make a game, be happy, share it, have fun. That's what it's all about.

[Inkybro]

You people have a very nice project going on, keep it up!



Blizzard made, WC1, WC2 and starcraft and diablo 1 and 2 wich where al 2D except for cinamatics. Now they own 2 3D games, Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft. Naming blizzard is a very bad example for this, blizzard is a legend in korea. It helped boost the economy and people working there extremely dedicated to there work. Blizzard is the one company that will never come under the name of EA becaus of this dedication.

Another cool fact, you know if you work several years at blizzard you get a real sword and shield (blizzard style) and if you work even longer you'll get an fully working, fully sized armor :D.

Not to mention when Blizzard released many of their 2D games, 3D wasn't even a plausible medium.

[hyperkinetics]

Personally, I quite like the 3dgamestudio A6 package - it's reasonably priced, and great to learn on. C-script in a simplified programming language. The model editor (MED) is useless but you can export from MAX, so all in all it ain't bad IMHO


Last year Myself and a team of about 16 built a lan Multiplayer shooter called Exogenesis http://exo-genesis.studiokaboom.net/index.htm using this engine, It was a big group project for the course we were all enrolled in and in about 5 months we made 4 playable characters and one playable level. This engine is good, but it can be a real pain in the ass. e.g. the level of difficulty invovled in using bone animation was so high we gave up and went with vertex. the lighting sucked it would take multiple hours to make shadow for a building, and had serious problems with collision mesh's.
I wouldn't reccomend it for beginners,

recently in projects i do by myself i've been using torque which i'd say is good for beginners

[Nokill]

yes the Torque is pretty good for beginners sinds it has a pretty large comunity and people can help you on your way on the forums
also it keeps things simple you won't be able to make realy super games with it but you can learn a lot by using it

[Animaleante]

where can I find this torque program??

[DahWan]

hey everyboady... i want to start learning how to make games. that long speech in the start of the thread didnt mean much to me. i have intermediate modelling skills, i know how to create normal maps etc. i know how to texture objects ans stuff. but i know NADA about this languages you are talking about. is there any kind people here who would add me to msn and help me get into game making?

[MIFUNE]

First of all excuse me for my bad english. :o

My name´s Angel, and I´m the author of a Half-Life MOD: Zion Warcry, based upon the assault of the Zion city as seen in Matrix Revolutions.

For those who want to do a 3D game, I think it´s better to start doing a MOD of a pre-existant game, in fact, there are 3D games that are merely a well done MOD of another original game ( BlueShift, Opposing Force, Gunman Chronicles...).

The reason is:

Pre-existant games have ALL elements in a pack that work fine ( except some hiper-patched crap that already all of us know... ), games like Half-Life ( the best MOD-Friendly game ever done ) have its SDK made public, a lot of MODs are developed for it, MODs from where you can take a lot of elements ( remember that a MOD it´s (c) the MOD Team but, because of being done upon an original game , it cannot be purchased and also you´re allowed to modify what they have already modified of the original game... , don´t fear the lawyers :drool: )

So,instead of coding in C++ a new engine, tools for model editing, map building, etc. It´s better to take a game like it and start MODding it.

But, WARNING!!, first of all, you must KNOW the engine limitations, let me give you an example:

Half-Life's engine doesen´t deal well with large open areas, so don´t expect doing a world as seen in RPG games ( the ones played On-Line ).Texture size ( unless you re-code some parts ) is limited to 512x512 in models and brushes ( polys of a map ), model vertices are limited to 1800 altough someones have meshes composed by more than 3000 triangles :blah: .

Also you MUST have played it in ALL skill levels at least 10 or 20 times before trying to modify the SDK, Why?, well, the best you know how lights are done, monsters AI runs, weapons fire, maps are developed,etc. the better you can take the SDK and modify what you want. ;P

Also you MUST have a very clear vision of the MOD you want to do, what are your skills before you´ll try to do so and what are the limits of the engine you'll use. I was only a mapper when I´d started, I was only able to modify skins ( with Adobe Photoshop ) and do maps ( I think I´m good :o ), then I wanted to make more complicated things, and started Zion Warcy without NO objective, No clues about coding, No Idea of modelling and, even if I payed HL 300 times, No knowledge of the HL Engine limitations...hey! I was a gamer, In my life I ever dreaded to make a full 3D game :grr: . I say this because, the MOD has 100% changed from the first version I´ve developed, only in 8 months, all because NOW I know what I want and the limitations. I started all without this and all that I did was crap, in fact, crap that didn´t work as it is intended to work...

I have had to learn how to model, animate, sound editing, mapping ( advanced ) , and learned the BASICS of C++ language, and still I´m a Noob even when I´d released Zion Warcry...

Aniway, believe me ( this theme is TOO WIDE and I´ve no time now :o ) try to MOD first, you´ll see that, with the things clear in your mind, and a little effort and organization, you´ll do the MOD-GAME of your Dreams.

If got questions...PM me, I´ll answer as soon as I can.

Bye! :wave:

[fais3000]

hey, first i must say ,its a very very informative thread. I was wondering could any one tell me how much a person has to learn to make a character in a 3d envoirnment explore the area, without any ai involved, only collision detection with the objects around. I hav fair amount of understanding DX , C/C++, MFC and most importantly modelling. But i am new to game programming.

[fais3000]

sorry , i forgot to mention, i dont want to use a mode to create above kind of demo

[hyperkinetics]

where can I find this torque program??

http://garagegames.com/
You can download a demo of it there, and buy the proper version, it is worthwhile buying it. access to lots of info, and very active forums

[Animaleante]

oh...thanks hyperkinetics...I was almost giving up on finding this program:D

[MIFUNE]

sorry , i forgot to mention, i dont want to use a mode to create above kind of demo

Huh?? :???:

A MOD could be more than a simple demo... :hmm: ... The authors of Clive Barker's Undying did something like a MOD with the UT Engine, and this game is a true JEWEL ;P .

[Yaurah7]

Based in relativity to the functions oƒ time we are already 4-D, but 7-D with duality, and progressive energy change and sorting mechanisms 7 Dimensional architecture is right around the corner ƒor a few programmers...need like a dual quad machine (MCPUC) Multiple Comp. Processor cores with separating support, and a good reality scan laser modeler ƒor input....Sorry Im getting carried away a bit....I like the article though...Time is oƒ essence in anything....


PEACE 7000

[Bor1s]

First i just want to say that i am a complete amateur.I've never even seen 3ds max or something.I now some of the terms and i've seen some videos,read some articles but that's it.Here is what i don't understand with games.Why can't we have games with photorealistic textures?I mean check out the first Mortal Kombat games.They look great.Well yes the resolution was kinda low but we have HD now so this shouldn't be a problem.What does it take for a game to become photorealistic?What do today's games don't have which the games of tomorrow will?It seems i asked more than one question...oh well they are connected.Thank you!

[madmenno]

Maybe i'm just talking a bunch of crap :D, but this is what i know.

Some scenes and characters are nearly fotorealistic from a distance. Thing is you can stand close to something in game and then it needs more and more detail. From what i have heard, the video memory needs more speed and capacity to increase the amount of textures that can be loaded.

And theres lighting too, real light bounces, deforms and scatter on differend kind of surfaces. Some photoreal renders take days to render on a normal PC, thats mostly becaus of the lighting.

Also if you look at the normal 3D model section, those fabulous models that people create sometimes have millions of polygons to make round surfaces (computers can't draw round things, they build it up out of pixels.

The late 2D computer games often looked way better then the first 3D games. This is becaus there was no need of a complicated 3D engine, it had no geometry to render and could focus on textures only. But now, look at some next gen game models, only if you look closely you can see a squary silluette.

[Bor1s]

So what you are saying is that it't all about numbers-polygons per character,number of textures,resolution of textures.And of course the lightning.But how can we make photorealistic textures-is it about talent?I mean there is difference in the skill of Leonardo and some average artist,right?
And can't we photograph the textures?
P.S.Actually your answer seams very sensible(because i thought the same things but i need more :)(as you can see i am still asking questions) ).

[Perversonality]

There's no reason why you couldn't use photos for textures. A lot of studios use photos as the basis for textures and paint over the top of them to get the effect they want. 3D engines are becoming more sophisticated and realism is increasing as a result, but if you want to sell a game in massive amounts then you need to make sure that you still support older hardware as not everyone runs the latest systems. There are also time considerations for photorealism in terms of development time. Graphics in games do not need to be perfect - when you look at a still shot of a game, it looks worse than when it's moving. Check out most MMORPGs. The graphics are lower poly than racing games or two character fighting games, but when they are moving around, they are often more immersive (and addictive) than more complexly modelled games. The brain is very good at filling in missing details automatically.

Photo-realism isn't always a good thing too. Check out Rise of the Robots. For its time, the graphics were the best thing ever. The gameplay absolutely sucked though as too much effort was put into the visuals and not enough into the playing/enjoyment side of things. FMV in movies was a fad that thankfully seems to have passed away - millions were thrown at famous actors who were basically filmed as if making a movie. The problem with the games was that it was like watching a movie instead of playing a game, and not so much fun.

Playability > visual perfection/realism

Fun > visual perfection/realism

[madmenno]

It's just we have to wait a while to get perfect photoreal 3D shooters and other games. Textures need to be sharp even when your walking against a wall, textures need to tile perfectly seamless. And if you look around in the real world there are a lot of things to look at, like my desk for instance... it's so dirty you will need a whole lot of poly's and textures to model it photoreal :D.

Anyway it will probably take a couple of decades to take some screenshots of your bank rob in GTA and make someone beleve you realy did that :D.

But hey, there are already people who make environments for next gen where i have to blink a couple of times to see that it's modeled so maybe i'm wrong :D.

[Bor1s]

Check it out.By my calculations we should have photorealism in 2025.PS2 launched in 1999 and it reached a max of 6000 polys per character.The polys of the PS were 8 times less.Now PS3 launched in 2006-7 years after PS2.It's bound to have atleast 8 times the polycount of the PS2.You get something like the law about CPUs-every 18months they double their speed.My law is that we 8th the polycount every 7 yers whcich means that in 2025 a few years after the PS5 will have launched i will have about 3mill polys per character which is perfect.I also want to state that gameplay is the most important thing but right now i'm just asking about graphics because graphics show our technological advancement.Gameplay is more due to imagination and ones genius if i may do say so myself.

[agony]

I am a C# user that wanna learn Direct X, so if there is a direct X user here can you tell what time do U need to learn it and what is the best way, does those tutorials that comes with it are enough?

[madmenno]

I think it takes us longer then 2025. Like i already said it's not the polies that count alone. It's animation, textures, lighting, sounds. If some guy here on the forum is rendering out a model of a pretty simple but "real" room it takes him a lot of time. Let's pick an hour (i know some insane people are rendering every light bounce till theres no more light, wich would take severly longer ofcourse). So in a video game you would like to have a fps (frames per second) of atleast 40.... calculate again :D.

Then you need ai, animation, sound running smooth and nicely too....

Also, they can't realy speed up processors anymore with the current technolgy. Just make them bigger or introduce dual core. The technology isn't evolving as quickly as 20 years ago. The digital revolution is near his end... Unless there comes another real big breaktrough that gives us another sprint in technology to 2025.

In short... I don't think we gonna make your deadline :D

[KVachon]

they can always just pack more onto the processor. apple has already announced 8 core.

[madmenno]

Thats actually what i said, but still, i don't think this 20 years will be as succesfull then the past 20. And that will count also when predicting when games are photoreal. And if the first games get photoreal it will take another age to get all the games to photoreal. I mean some environments just need more polys to get photoreal. For example a jungle scene would take many more poly then a sci fie corridor to get photoreal.

Still i think the calculation of light, relection, refraction and gaustics will have the most impact on the engine.

Another thing just popped up in my head, you will have to deal with intersecting meshes too. If you want something photoreal the shoulder armor shouldn't be sticking half inside a wall. And when walking to a door holding a sniper you should not be able to see the rifles behind the door when it's still closed :D. So the game developers get to choose making the game more real or enhance gameplay.

[Mr_Ridd]

Hi

I have only read this sticky thread now, and haven't read any of the other posts.

First off I would like to ask, what are you actually aiming at? Are you trying to discourage people from making games or do you just want people to believe the bull**** that you write.

Are you even a programmer, and if you are do you know anything about games programming. The majority of people that want to make games either just want to make a small game for themselves or an indie game. Yes we all know that everyone does secretly want to make an MMORPG and yes, that won't happen unless they start a games company.

But seriously, where did you get all that crap about what languages you need to know and how long it will take. I work for a subsidiary company of Microgaming, an online casino company. I work in the Poker department as a developer and I did not start off learning Basic, then Java then bla di bla di bla. I'm 22, and I only starting programming when I was 18. I first did a 5 month Java course then proceeded to teach myself C and then C++.

If you are serious about games programming then C++ is the one you need to learn.

I think what you should rather say is that you need to know HOW TO PROGRAM instead of trying to intimidate people by telling them unless they know everything they will never get anywhere.

Yes you have to start somewhere. One thing you forgot to mention though is that there are so many open source 3D engines out there at the moment that there isn't that big of a difference whether you make a 2D game or small 3D game.

Why not post some links? Get people started in the right direction.


Thinking of making a game? Start with the BASICS and work your way through the ladder.

Your post does not mention any "basics" but yet you title the post "How to make a game". Your post has absolutely no information relating to how to actually make a game.

Please, please if you are going to try to help people, make it relevant.

--
Mr_Ridd

[defaultalias]

whats kinda funny is this thread was started over 3 years ago, and the guy that started it hasn't been active for over a year. and next time before you go and start telling someone off for their opinions, don't.

if you read the entire thread, you'll find it does have a LOT of very helpful links to free engines, development communities, and other useful info for people who want to make a game.

[katana]

really nice...and a 4D medical program showing the passage of time on a patients body was released this week....imagine the game that could be created with that!

[Beriadan]

... I'm going to start crying now... I wish to be 12 years old again and to start all over with the mind I have today... This way when I became 22 again I'm going to be an Ace, a very skilled person. But today I am just a guy hwo is figuring out wich button does what...
somme guy sad AMain!!! I'm saying GOD DEAM!!!!

[poopipe]

I'm very confused.

[rocneasta]

other that the fact that's poopie confuesed anyone mind sharing current state of mind due to Z-brush models, and optimizing the models etc. what is the classic way of doing things what are the modern ways and best practices and especially guidelines / books / tutorials covering the art of LOW POLY.

[NinthJake]

other that the fact that's poopie confuesed anyone mind sharing current state of mind due to Z-brush models, and optimizing the models etc. what is the classic way of doing things what are the modern ways and best practices and especially guidelines / books / tutorials covering the art of LOW POLY.
I would also like a guide to this :D

Also what was said in the first post doesn't really apply anymore. Today there are many ways of making a game, some of them extremely automated but even the manual way of creating a game doesn't take much time to learn. We will learn to create 3D games in my coding class soon.