Groggthorr the Jaggernaut

[Avatar-3DT]

This is a troll (as I see trolls). I dedicate this thread to Knut, who's making the best low-poly troll ever, to MonteCristo, the "father" of the sexiest elfe I lay eyes over, ca't wait to see it fenished, to my buddy rage who will deliver us, hopfully soon, the coolest Tolkien scene and to all my romanian compatriots on the forum. Some of them realy amazed me.
Well, I expect some c&c.

[wolfy]

good start there dude. It seems trolls are very in at the moment, which can only be a good thing. I would like to see a little more of his body, are you thinking fat podgy looking or very muscular??? It could be interesting both ways. And will he have a big old tree club????:D :D :D :xyz:

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks wolfy! In fact you're right, I'm going with the fat like look. Its a jaggernaut after all. Just plain big and dumb and with some seriouse attitude problems. But for a weapon I was thinking at a big piece of wood with a boulder attached on the end of it with some leather strings. I'm worried about the furs 'tho. Scatter won't do the work. I may have to export him in Max 3 to be able to use the hair plugin.

[sarN]

haha, he looks very juggernaut-ish, if that helps ya :D
keep goin!

[LoGiY]

looks nice

[Thomas Mahler]

Looks great! I especially love this characteristic nose... ;-)

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, from what I know, trolls have a very accute sense of smell. That and the infravision sight help them track prey into the forest at night, for they are night creatures. Legends sais that the sun turns them into stone or make them blow away.

[Daniel]

really cool, it's obvious your talent in drawing seeps into your 3D skills.

[Avatar-3DT]

Daniel, nice to see you here! And cool avatar by the way; I love Raziel and I love his story. I've been with the Legacy since the begining (Blood OmenI & II, Soul Reaver I & II); I bearly expect for SoulReaver III. I hope it's coming soon.

About my troll.... Well, I'll work tonight on his ears and prehaps a little on his arms. I'll come with a post as soon as possible.

[Daniel]

yeal I totally agree, I'd totally addicted to that series. Blood Omen 2 was so cool, playing as an actual vampire (I'd love to model one of those someday). You should check http://www.legacyofkain.com they have a preview for the new upcoming installment. So anyhow, post more updates :D

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks for the link Daniel. Yeah, Kain and the entire story around him its just great! The way the things twist and bend within the necromancers and Kain's interests and manipulation.
And here is the update.

[MonteCristo]

Wow! you have been busy haven't you? Looking really good so far I can see your anatomy knowledge is really helping this one. Half the battle is subtlety. I think it's a battle you are winning.

One thing, To me the ears are positioned to far down and to far forward. Of course, this being a troll, there are no rules, they can be whereever you like. But as a viewer it catches my eye. It's up to you to decided whether you agree.

Thanks for the head's up at the start of the thread btw. :halo: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, the positioning of the ears is intentional. The defect you spoted (and its a defect indeed but I couldn't corect it) will be hidden by the sideburns the troll will have. The ears are positioned low to keep the illusion of a flat, small head. I hope to solve my hair problem (in fact his hair problem:D) so I'll have some strands hanging around those big, low ears. If not, I'm thinking about a very short hair covering his head, maybe some baldness starting to eat around the forhead.
Please, if you are seing things that seems wrong, show them to me.

[Daniel]

wow great progress, I can already feel the atmosphere of the character coming to life. I'm impressed.

[Avatar-3DT]

And a small update. Some legs, front, side back view. I need some advice for rigging and animation.
I have a problem with character studio. When I try to animate the pevis bone its not mooving. Its locked or something?

[rubberduck]

Nice! A few places needs tweaking, but I'm sure you'll fix them as you go:)

[Avatar-3DT]

rubberduck, nice to have you around! Please feel free to give me red circles around my mistakes. :D
Tonight I added eyes to my troll and worked a little more on his legs. Here is the update:

[Avatar-3DT]

...and the big view.

[Knut]

w00t Avatar, I luuuv this troll. The first thing I laid my eyes on was the nose which looked great. The muscles are also really cool, but I think you should do something with the shoulders. They are positioned too far out on the arms. Move them more towards the neck and then everything would look just fine. Wicked belly btw:D

And thanks for the dedication buddy:)

[Knut]

oh and another thing. These lines should not be there. You only need one set of lines going from the nose to the sides of the mouth. If you make two, it gives him a very "thin" feel. Or maybe its just me :/

[anonuser]

Very impressive!.
You improve so much! I wish i could do it like that, but im so bad at this, but i'm going to try at it!

[novoAlias]

looks very nice so far, i thought the legs could be shorter but i looked again and it seemed to work...

[Avatar-3DT]

Knut, the shoulders are like this for a reason. I had some unfortunate experience with character studio and, after a three days worth of work on a character with just the right "amount" of shoulders, after rigging him, it looked like he had no shoulders at all. Maybe just my faulty rigging, but I didn't improve since then and I'll do the same rigging to this troll here. So now I'm sure he will not suffer the same destiny .
You could be right about the lines. I made them like that trying to enhance the effect of the cheek bones and to give his a tough look. Do you now Lance Henriksen (Millenium guy)?
I'll try to see how it looks without the second line. Thanks for input. I needed it.

anonuser, since two month ago I couldn't model a nose. All I did was done by extruding and cutting and extruding again from a sphere. Exercize make one get better. So exercise. A lot!

BlackWolf, you were right! The legs were indeed too long for the bulky image I want to create on him. I saw it when I had to add the fur on the legs. So I tweak a little and I thik I have now the right amount to make him a heavy, bulky troll. I used what I call a piramidal structure. I used for big, heavy characters. A small head bigger shoulders, bigger belly, bigg feet.
Here is what I've done today. Thank you all.

Front view of the finished troll

[Avatar-3DT]

I'm working now on a weapon for the troll. Some kind of a primitive stone hammer. I plan to do a loincloath and some weird belt, plus a pair of bracelets to make his arms look even stronger.

Side view of troll:

[Avatar-3DT]

A back view...

[Avatar-3DT]

...and finaly a wire!

[anonuser]

*bow* oh troll master!
amazing ^_^; ofcourse im practicing alot.
I've started to model a gun, very slowly obtainting lots of detail more than i need, but i'll clean up when im done.

one question, is it meshsmoothed?

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks anonuser (bow back to you) but if you are searching for the troll masters you should see Knut and CountZero's posts.
I'm glad you are exercizing. Do it. The more, the better. And yes, the finished version (see the post) has one level of smooth. Not the wire version. That one is unsmoothed. For the animation I'll have to give him two levels of meshsmooth and, with the cloath simulation, the hair (if I succide to do some hair) and the flex to giggle the fat it will be processor killer.
One advice. If you make that gun for a still, do as many detail as you like. It has to look the best and details are the secret. Well, the texturing and the illumination also. :roll:

[Avatar-3DT]

And this would be the weapon he carries around...

[Knut]

Avatar, that club thingy is freakin amazing.

[Daniel]

man your making some real progress Avatar, I'm impressed. Two things about the troll. His stomach area looks a bit weird, he should have some abdominal muscles even though he's fat, and his biceps should be a bit more detailed. Sure you knew that and hadn't gotten around to it, but still :D

[Dragen]

I have to agree, that club is :eek:. Could you post a wire version of it?

[wolfy]

Hes really looking nice my friend, though i agree with Danielb get rid of those abs and just make him fat maybe some streching of the skin. And that club rock dude.:D :D :D :xyz:

[Avatar-3DT]

OK, let's see.
Knut the club is very easy done. The texture and the illumination it's all about it.
DanielB, maybe you are right, but i wanted to go with the half-summo guy. And there are no muscles visible on summo fighters, are they? I'll trie your version just to see how it looks. Thanks.
Dragen as I said, the club is easy to model. Just a modified cilinder, many torus 4 sided elements, a modified box... The straps that keep the boulder started as a plain, I did half the work, I copied, attached the 2 sides, selected all, extruded 0.1 and scaled a little, then added meshsmooth.
wolfy, lol my friend! I guess you didn't read right what Daniel said because it was just the opposite. And by the way, I have a friend who's nickname is also Wolfy because his real name is Alupului that can be translated Wolfenstein:D

Here is the wire of the club. Sorry, its not an unsmoothed version, I colapsed the entire stack. But its pretty clean.

[anonuser]

very nice!

[Avatar-3DT]

And some update on the troll. I added some textures today.

[Avatar-3DT]

Wow, anonuser, that was quik, I think we're browsing in the same time!

Here is a close up to the face.

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, the hardest part is yet to come. First of all, the hair. I have no ideea how to make the hair. I have hair plugin for max3 but I cannot bring the mash back to max5 for rigging and animation. So I'm thinking.
Second, the rigging. I'm not so good so I'm afraid I'm gonna scrue something. But hei, what the hell, its an adventure, isn't it?

[anonuser]

that is awesome! i love that face it is so expressive

[Avatar-3DT]

I hope that face sais to you : "I don't know what is that little piece of metal in your hand, but I'm big and strong and stupid so I will ripp it, hand and all and push it down your throat!":D.
At least is what I wanted.

[anonuser]

heh, its good, why don't you joing #3dtotal at quakenet?
with more people it would become a lot better.

[Avatar-3DT]

I never hear of it. I'm new to all the tread thing. Maybe you could give me a link to see what is all about.

[anonuser]

http://www.mirc.com (i think that is it) go there get that

fill out required info

in the nextwindow, type /server quakenet.org
then type /join #3dtotal
and you'll be there

[Daniel]

wow... dude I'm jealous, lol

[Emperor]

Well for the hair without plugins I suggest u do the old style patches with opacity mapping on them..or simply get shag hari LOL...depends on what sort of hair u want I guess...opacity mapping can be tough tho...Looks super..wouldnt wanna meet him ANYWHERE!

[Avatar-3DT]

anonuser thanks for the link, maybe I'll try it soon.

DanielB, don't be buddy, this is our troll. Lets send him after the Emperor :D

Emperor? I didn't know you were here too. You didn't saw the last phrase, did you? :p

Here, I gave it a try with the hair but I must tell you I wont' pursue with that. It's too procesor costly, unstable and not so effective. I guess I just do some sideburns and go with the opacity thing.

[Boss]

I know this has nothing todo with what all u guys are talking about but could anyone give me tip on what program i should use for starting off. Wings, Max, Lightwave, Maya?

[Avatar-3DT]

This one is for wolfy. Here buddy, I made him plain fat. But don't he look to plain? I think I'll go with the podgy belly, add some flex on it and let the animation to the rest.

[Avatar-3DT]

Boss, every modeling program has his perks. Wing is cheap and great to start with, max has a userfriendly interface, Maya and Lightwave have their great part too. Its up to you to decide what program you'll use. I would recomand you 3dmax. It's a costly investment but I think is the most balanced of all the programs in modeling/animation.

And this is for Knut. As I promised I tweaked with those lines. It doesn't look so bad. I start the rigging today. Maybe I'll leave it like that.

[Emperor]

Yes I'm here...been here longo time lurking...

Yea I saw the phrase buta...well not that I'm FOR stuff like that being abused but...there are ways to "acquire" stuff like shag:hair too...;)

[Avatar-3DT]

chm, chm! And if I suposetly want to do it, would you be kind enough to help me "aquire" such a plugin? Not that I'm for such actions or something;)

[Daniel]

no no no, go with Maya! M A Y A! It made lord of the rings! You can't beat that! Gollum! :D
As for cost effective, you can always get a :::coughs:::student:::coughs::: version on kazaa! :cool:

For the hair Avatar, why not just model it with polys like in the joan of arc tutorial, it kinda gives it a cartoon look. I abandoned trying to use fur in Maya (kinda like max's shag hair I suppose) it was way too hard on my pc, and weirdly ennough, I have a 2.2ggz pentium 4 and 2048 megs of ram, talk about not being processor friendly.

[Emperor]

yeah I can help...hehe...and kazaa can too...and bay it's NOT what u use Daniel.it's how..btw ur avatar guys made with MAX!

shag is very proccessor frindly and not at all as hard on the unitas paint fx in maya are

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks for the advice Daniel. You did had a leviathan of a pc. Man, 2gb of RAM? Insane! I have only 128 and my hair rendering took only a few minutes. Ofcourse, the value would have increased as the troll got animated, but.... 2 GB of RAM?!!!

Emperor, thank you also. The problem is that I don't have kazaa and it will take a while until my friends will help me find it. I use Opera browser. And indeed, everyone I heard spoke about shag-hair had only words of praising about it.

By the way, have any of you guys saw the movies on the Warcraft 3 expansion, Frozen Throne? Its a kick-ass work dudes! I got my hair so electrified it stood up! Its one of the best animation I ever saw.

I finished a rough rigging and done some animation but I got issues with the cloth reactor. The cloth refuse to colide with the troll's body and do not follow the character. So, in this image, the troll has no loin-cloth. Do you know any tut about the freakin' cloth reactor in max5?

[Avatar-3DT]

Ofcourse, there is a lot to do before the entire animation will be ready, like tweaking with the rigg a little more, adjusting the mesh, adding cloth and hair (hopefully), adding forest thing around him (like grass and bushes, maybe some foliage on the trees), tweaking with the sky (now it's just a map with a spherical enviroment and there are too many stars).

[Daniel]

lol nice, looks awesome. He looks like he's saying "run into me, and I'll tear off your arm and beat you with the wet end" :D

[Avatar-3DT]

That was the ideea. I didn't go with "shrek"-ish ideea: "Boo, I'm a big nasty creature, fear me!", but with "-What the... Roaaar! -Help! Help! Aaargh!... Crunch, crunch, miam, good human, ha, troll want more!" ideea.
I played a little with the lights, added some plants and I think this is more suitable.

[David Ciprian]

...and it looks much better!Nice hideous thing!Love the lighting:)

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks buddy, I appreciate your kind remark. Come again, this is a thing I' still working on and I think it can only get better.

Inca mai incerc sa fac ceva cu nebunia de cloth reactor dar nu-mi iese nimic. nu stiu cum sa fac nenorocita aia de carpa sa stea pe el!

Hey, guys, I need some H E L P!!! with the damn loin cloth. Does somebody know how the f***ing cloth reactor is working with rigged characters 'cause Nothing seems to stand on the mesh of the Troll and while he's moving the cloth stand (ad that only if I fixe vertexes in world space). I can't tell you the degree of fury I'm in. I feel my neurons dying away!

[novoAlias]

my moniter must be too dim, but when i turn it up i can see the picture but im blinded!!!! lol shrek. and if you find out how to do cloth please let me know:D. very nice pice that last one tho

[Dreamer]

Someone I know said something about a DMcollection before when dealing with cloth on a char, can't tell you much else though, sorry. As for that final scene it looks great, he really looks like hes on the prowl and the angle is good too IMO, makes him look big and imposing. Great work.

[Avatar-3DT]

May not be only your monitor, the scene is intentionaly dark to mimic the night illumination. As for the cloth, I guess I partialy solved the problem. But not quite.
Next I think I'll add some mushrooms and some fireflies, perhaps some stones on the troll's path.

[Liquid X]

I am a beginner and would like to first say, that I envy your talent. I would say though, that I understand you want the darkness of the whole thing, but being that dark, you can barely even see him. You might add like a moonlight beam very thin, but enough to kinda show he's there. Just my opinion. Keep up the good work, I am gonna continue to watch and see where you take this.

[Avatar-3DT]

You're not the first to tell me that so i guess democracy wins:D :
the image is to dark. I promise to tweak with the lights some more. Maybe tomorow I'll give you an update. I added the fireflies and I decided to stay away from cloth for now. To much simulation time. The scene has almost 700.000 faces until now. Rendering time is about 10-15 minutes 640x480. And I'm thinking to change the club with a spiked club. What do you think?

[Liquid X]

would definitely make it look sweet. But only if you use a multi spike club, I hate the single big spike clubs, they just don't look right. Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing your resulting work.

[David Ciprian]

I dunno why you people say this kind of images are too dark.They are perfect this way : DARK..only some details visible...but I'm guessing you must see everything, don't you ?

[ido]

wow :eek: avatar , i didn't have time to visit the forums lately so I missed this one :) looks very very cool. i like the dark images but as said needs some more light. maybe you can try a backlight for the moon light, it can give you a nice contour effect :)

[Avatar-3DT]

Wow, I'm really impress about the input guys! I'm glad ol' Groggthorr got so strong reaction and I'm glad you like him. He would like you to, in a stew ofcourse :p

Liquid X I didn't quite understand the multispiked club thing you were talking about. Did you mean a club with more than one spike or a flail?
David Ciprian Well, I guess romanian people keep they're monitor luminosity pretty high, doesn't they?:D
ido, nice to have you around. Thanks for the advice, I did work with the light a little.

Here is the light tweaked image. If this is still too dark tell me.

[MonteCristo]

It would be great if you could set up a more detailed environment for him. Really spend time on it, so you don't have to hide behind darkl lighting. However, your character does look very ominous and really genuinely scary so I reckon you achieved what you set out to do here.

I think you have rushed the textures perhaps, I know you could apply your fabulous drawing skills to making the texture do what it should. At the moment, he is to smooth, and unmarked. He could be a lot more detailed than he is now. I recommend you look here, to see what I mean:

"Making of The Viking animation" by "Cemre Ozkurt,2002" (http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/viking/main2.asp)

[Avatar-3DT]

You're right Monte, he is indeed too smooth. Thanks for the reference, but I know for a while (and really admire) the work of Cemre Ozkurt. In fact, my troll has a pretty good bitmap but I don't know why doesn't show here. Maybe I was too shy giving it a good value. Thanks for pointing that, I will try to do something to adjust it.
Working on the enviroment it will be a bitch 'cause the scene it has already over 730.000 polys and there are things to add like the pants on the troll and some mushrooms, maybe some grass and some flowers and its already taking about 10 minutes per frame to render it. And the animation has 400 frame by now. It will be a pain to render it.
Please advice with the compressors. I used DivX 5.05 but the animation still gets big, so I think I do not know to adjust it. Perhaps someone could give me some coordinates for a smaller but yet good image, size.

[sarN]

the only thing that bugs me about is the foot thats in the air
it seems like its on an invisible platform
maybe if you tilted it down just a tad it would look more realistic?
i know i dont walk liek that hehe
he looks awesome though, and a detailed environment would make it even better

[Rc2000]

Super job Avatar. I was wondering though, after that awesome texturing of the face, will you have a little more light on it? The lighting on the very first rendering did show some of the face though. And that rock strapped to the wood for his club is most excellent.
Overall the scene is really shaping up.

Rc

[Daniel]

really cool, but it's a shame we can't see anything of the texturing you did, cause it's really good. You might think of adding some rim lighting to your character, not make it affect the environment (you can do that with light linking or something), so the outlin of your character is illuminated, gives a dramatic effect. Maybe put a fire or someting on a nearby tree or hut? You could make the light affect some of his body with some kind of cloud transparency, so it wouldn't be all illuminated, just portions, like wisps. Sorry it's hard for me to explain, I only speak Maya'er, don't know the functions of Max :roll:

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks for the input, it really helps guys! All I had to do is to give him a reasonable value on the bump map.
sarN, the leg is in the air because he's on the move. And I would rather render him like that than make him look static.
RC2000 the detail on the face are meant for close ups, cause I'm trying to do a short movie with this and I'll have some morphing and, ofcourse, close ups on the face. I hope you like the new club.
DanielB, I guess I solved the problem of the bump mapping. I'm thinking about your suggestion to make a nearby fire. The trolls are heavy creature and they couldn't hunt by sneaking; I imagine that they hide and wait for a unsuspicious victim to pass by and then they jump him (her). So, as my troll seems so certain on him, it could be an ideea to make a hut nearby.

Here is the bump-modified image. I also added the mushrooms, some bushes, the pants and I've changed the club.

[Liquid X]

yeah, what they said. :cool: The lighting is much better, but I would light up the face a bit more. All that detail is hidden right now.

[Liquid X]

well my last post was made at the same time he posted that image. I love the little lite sprites in the background. The new club is exactly what I meant with the multi-spikes. Looks great. And the Bump-mapping looks great. He looks much more realistic now.

[RickStefani]

Looks cool walking through the dark like that. You could almost here the thumb and crackling of branches under his feet. On the bump map, if you invert the colors for the one on his face I think it would look a whole lot beter. It looks like the wrinkles are really ridges and the pores are bumps.

[Avatar-3DT]

Liquid X, you were right, we were browsing the thread in the same time. Glad you like it.
RickStefani maybe in a few week you we'll really hear the crackling of the branches under his feet, the thumbing of the heavy steps on the ground, the wisper of a soft wind up in the trees, the noise of the crickets, the lonely cry of a owl and the distant howling of a wolf; I'm searching for the right sounds right now. If anybody knows where I can find sounds like these, please, direct me. And Rick, be sure I'll give a try to your suggestion.

[rubberduck]

Looking better and better

Here's a link with wolf sounds
http://members.fortunecity.com/shdowwolf/sounds.html

Some owl sounds here
http://new.wavlist.com/soundfx/012/

[Rc2000]

I saw you mention close-ups for the animation. Groovy. And that club is great!
Since you're thinking of doing close-ups later, that last picture then looks great with the lighting. Real creepy and showing just enough detail.

Rc

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, what looks good now would look dreadfull on a close up. This is too much detailed for a close up because the bump map would be too agresive and pixelated.

[Liquid X]

Avatar, why is that? does the bump map bunch up and try to cover a smaller area when close ups are done? If you can get the idea I am trying to say.

[Avatar-3DT]

No infact, the map don't bunch up but is like in real life: if a man has a mole and you can see it twenty feet away it will look like a brown dot on the skin. But if you get closer you'll see thow munch bigger is the mole. So its with the bump map of my troll. To make it visible from the distance of the camera I had to increase its value around 200. For the close up the good value is around 20, ten time smaler. Otherwise a small bump (from distance) would look like a fist trying to punch his way out of the skin (close up).Get the idea?

[Avatar-3DT]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Avatar
[B]No infact, the map don't bunch up but is like in real life: if a man has a mole and you can see it twenty feet away it will look like a brown dot on the skin. But if you get closer you'll see thow munch bigger is the mole. So its with the bump map of my troll. To make it visible from the distance of the camera I had to increase its value around 200. For the close up the good value is around 20, ten time smaler. Otherwise a small bump (from distance) would look like a fist trying to punch his way out of the skin (close up).Get the idea?
rubberduck, thanks for the links, realy useful.
Rc2000, I'll try to speed up the last touches so I can start rendering. That is a proces that realy scare me 'cause I have 800.000 poly by now and only 128 mb or Ram with a 1,4 Gb AMD procesor.

[Daniel]

damn, that must take forever doesn't it? 128... Maya recommends 512, I can just imagine lightwave at 128. :eek:

[Avatar-3DT]

Yeah, exactly Daniel, hell on earth, that's what I have to endure. Today was the first time I thought is ready to be rendered like an animation... Ten hours later there were 85 frames rendered but a dark suspicion darckened my mind. So I stoped the rendering and take a look to the movie. Felt the acute need to kill something! Two big mistakes were laughing at me fool theet and all: The fireflies were pasing through the troll and the thumb from his left hand was passing through his leg as he started to move.
I just took a deep breath, shuted down the computer and go with my friends to have some fun. Well, **** happens!
I'll add a deflector so that the cloud particles that are the fireflies deflect from the trolls body and corect the animation mistake. Keep the fist closed for me and wish me luck.

[Rc2000]

ARGH! That bites BIG TIME! After all that and then you discover the errors.
Did you try a smaller untextured test on this first, to see if any problems would come up? hmmm, I just thought though, doing that might not show how the 'fireflies' would act. Not sure though. I've never tried anything like them.
Just curious though, what size animation were you trying? I mean, dpi and image height and width? The smaller it is, the faster it'll render. But the few animations I've done were pretty simple with the figure and not too much background or lighting effects.

Rc

[RickStefani]

ouch. That sucks. I just walked over to the ghost town called " finished 2d art" section and you are very good at 2D and it shows in you 3D. This animation is going to look cool. I can already see some of the effect of the moon light hitting him when he walks passed the shadow from a tree. The glowing eyes are a great touch. I have 640 megs RAM but it is only the PC100 with a PIII 600 so I know what you mean about the slow proccess.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, let's start with youRc2000:
I've done the animation of the troll separate from the scene. The troll itself has only aroun 30.000 polys but the only problem in rendering are the eyes, wich are raytraced. This is the cool effect you see, there is no glow on the eyes, but only the light reflected and some self illumination on the difuse map. The thing is that, after I merged the troll with the scene and added objects, the animation have to be changed so I change it on the spot. That was my principal mistake.
Everything is rendered at 640x480 HDTV, I don't know what dpi, didn't check. But not the textures are the problem but the number of the polys, the lights (I've got 4 light, a target spotlight and three omni, two of them casting raytraced shadows, one of them - the spotlight, with projector map and volumetrics).
The fireflies are just particles with lens effect on them so they don't depent on texture. I'm not interested to render a small resolution scene. If I want I can dowsize this one after I'll finish it.
Rick I hope I made it clear about the glowing eyes. As for the harware, I know, before this one I had an AMD K62, 500 mhz and 256 RAM. As for the time, well, the rendering let me turn to my drawing board. And I'm kinda use to this, last year I was working on a music videoclip and rendering was crazy, I was rendering a day and a night for some scenes. And sometimes, after hours and hours, the electricity blinked for a second and everything was lost.

[Daniel]

hey Avatar, I understand man. At our school, we got this render farms alright, 2 weeks before the deadline, I'm rushing like crazy doing all my renders for my 2 minute animation. About 10 minutes a frame for about 3000 frames I believe. Anyways I spend the night there, watch all the computers, make sure they are alright. In the wee hours of the morning, I realise all my frames are BLACK, nothing at all! If a kitten had been near my leg, I would of kicked the living crap out of it, rofl.

[Avatar-3DT]

You now, your a kind man. Whenever I get furiouse (and thats very rare indeed) I qualify for the job of executioner from hell. All kinds of twisted things go through my head, killing and torture. Ofcourse, I never put them to use, by it scares me that I even think about such horrors.

[Rc2000]

HDTV? That's for transfering to video isn't it? For video I do NTSC or something like that, around 30 frames a second and slightly bigger than you're doing. For the internet I make the animations for Quicktime using the Sorenson codec with the animation around 200 x 150, more or less, at 12 or 15 frames a second, depending on how it looks at those speeds. Video editing and converting to Sorenson for internet streaming is done in Final Cut.
All are at 72 dpi. I'm on a Mac G3, 350 mhz, 384 ram. Thing is, I've never really timed my renderings.
Anyway, I hope you get your animation worked out and rendered okay. That will be so cool.

Rc

[Avatar-3DT]

For editing I use Vegas Video and Adobe Premiere. With them I can change resolution as I need. But I never tried to do them quick time, I never heard about the Sorenson codec and I never post an animation on the net before.
I fixed the errors in animation, the rigg and the fireflies both and, guess what: I ADDED HAIR TO MY TROLL!!! YUPEEE!
Don't ask me about the hair but I do tell you, I feel like a child closed over night in a mall full of ciocolate, icecream and toys.
I'm still tweaking with the hair parameters but its good for now.
And I found what is stealing rendering time: VO-LU-ME-TRICS!
Damn, I would have take them out in a heart beat but volumetrics make the scene look nightly and cool.
Here is an update on troll:

[chaos_seed]

This therad really is getting better 'n better C'ant wait to see how it'll end but if continues this way it can only be great ! !

anyway, I don't know wich program you're working on but if your on max 'n using shag hair well You 'll get mad on this tutorial 'cause it really describe well all parameters 'n it's effects really I think you should take a look

keep on going ! ! !

[chaos_seed]

forgat the link sorry :o


http://www.3d-station.com/Tutoriaux/tutoriaux.php?id=50

[Daniel]

uhm dude, the tutorial is french... :roll:

[chaos_seed]

well yes I know I had forgot sorry :o
As I 'm french i did not had problm but I had forgot that peapole don't all speak french !:D

I think you can get the main ideas by picture and if not I can translate a quicker version if you wish ! ! !

[Avatar-3DT]

chaos_seed, unfortunaly I dont have yet shaghair, what i used here is shagfur. Thank you for the tutorial, I can read french and I understand mostly of it as I'm a romanian and I was a foreign languages student in highschool.
You are most kind and I thank you for your appreciation. I start rendering the scene and work on the fallowing one that involves a human house at the edge of the forest. The story? Troll goes to hunt, find human settlement and burst into the house thinking he'll have a really tasty snack on the family that lives there. What hapens next?
Maybe another time.

[MonteCristo]

Yeah, now we're talking. It's really starting to come together...

[Avatar-3DT]

Oh man, I really hope so. 800.000 polys without a rendering farm is hell. I start rendering the scene with the troll walking. It wont be the first scene of the short movie, but I think it may be the most difficult to render. The first scene will belong to the narator ( possibly me). I'm still looking for suitable sounds, I couldn't fnd anything to go with the night scene, like crickets and the soft wisper of the wind in the trees. I have a crapy mic otherwise I would have recorded the sounds in my own courtyard. I have a pretty big garder and, in the summer (like now), my courtyard sounds beautiful.

[Little Nicky]

Ah, but DanielB, Maya didn't make Lord of the Rings. Weta Digital made Lord of the Rings. And I'm sure that if Pixar's Renderman was Max compatable, they could have done just as good a job in Max.

Anyway, I love this troll Avatar. I know the rendering time is slow, but a larger resolution on the bump map would be good, because, as you said, it does look a bit pixellated.

And, I also know that you're basically finished modelling, but the feet don't look as realistic as the rest ... they look more like something from a computer game, if you don't mind my saying.

But keep up the good work, I can't wait to see an animation.

[Liquid X]

So much positiveness in the air, then you read Little Nicky's post. :(

Oh well. Actually, I have been reading about the different 3D packages, and Max would have had trouble with the scenes in Lord of the Rings. Max has trouble with larger scenes, where Maya would be a stronger program. Linked with the PRMan renderer, Maya is a very strong package for doing large scenes. Max is best suited to less complex and smaller scenes.

Avatar, with the memory prices being at such low rates, how come you don't up your mem? I know money is hard to come by at times, but an extra 128 would do wonders, and shouldn't break the bank. Other, than that. Is all I have to say is I love the hair, and the latest render is a lil brighter than the rest. Lets you see the troll, but not take away from the darkness of him. Keep up the good work.

About the whole rendering thing. Has anyone on the board ever considered making a friendly render farm. Where we could all benefit?

[Avatar-3DT]

Little Nicky, thaks for the crit, it really helps to get cool calculated suggestions from time to time. The feet look unrealistic for just one reason: The lower feet is not animated! I just couldn't animate the foot fingers bend and flex as the troll goes. The walking animation is made with character studio and was automaticaly generated. I changed only the tracks for the arms and I animated a vertebre to give him a swing to make him look heavy. And the textures are already around 640X480.

Liquid X, thank you also, is nice to see someone coming in your defense. In fact I will upgrade my memory this month with 256 Mb DDRAM. I was really having some doubts as I want to get for my self a wacom table also. My bank is a frail think but my dreams are a place higher than my finances so I'll always give them more importance. The renderfarm ideea is awsome, but I don't realy think there would be many to get involved in this.

[Liquid X]

I would definitely grab the extra mem first, then go for the tablet. Then when you do go for the tablet, ebay is a great way to go. I think the renderfarm idea would only work with a limited amount of time allowed on peoples work and they would have to sign up for it, and earn time by posting, and making tuts. Obviously more time for tuts then posts.

[Little Nicky]

Sorry Liquid X, I just get slightly upset because the attitude towards the different packages (especially with the newer modellers, though I'm not saying you are one), is that it is the program that makes the model/scene, not the modeller, which is not the case. But yes, each program has its strong points, and if I could, I would have them all and interchange at will. Oh well :(.

Avatar, I suppose I can't be one to talk about using small textures – I am stuck to using a P200 for all my 3D work, and it is very fustrating. I have never had the money to upgrade, but, luckily, I will be getting a top-of-the-line computer within a few months.

Good work, anyway. I'm eager to see the next update.

[Liquid X]

Little Nicky, thank your for the appology and it was not really necessary. To be honest, I am actually a new modeller. But that is why I know as much about the different programs. I am working hard to try and find the ideal program for me. I ended on deciding that Maya was the best for where I want to take it. But for others Max would be better. I have dabbled a bit in Lightwave and more in Maya. Never gotten around to playing with Max yet. I actually do want to learn Maya, then learn Max later.

I have got to ask, how can you stand do 3D work on a P200. I understand the not being able to upgrade because of cost, but whew man, if I had the extra cash as a fellow animator, I would buy you a beefier system. Out of curiousity, do you use older versions of the programs then?

[RickStefani]

And here I was complaining about working on a PIII 600.

[Little Nicky]

Well, to be honest, I don't know how I can stand it. I use Max 4.2, and I suppose a slower system helps train me to not go overboard on the polygons. But I'm getting a new system soon, so that's alright.

I'm not really sure why I chose Max. I hadn't done much research on them and I'm not sure which I would have chosen if I had known more. But I would like to try Maya as well, and maybe even LW, and then make my choice. I suppose where I want to go, I want to be using Renderman, so I would have to do the rendering in Maya, no matter what program I used to model with.

[Liquid X]

thats not true. If you know how to program, you could make your own MTOR program. Or, I bet if you look out there. Someone has made a conversion program to take your max files and convert them to work with renderman, just like MTOR does with maya files.

[Emperor]

Isn't there a Maxman? I hear something bout that...a renderman version for max...

[Liquid X]

Maybe one that someone made or a group made, but not a true Pixar product, no.

[RickStefani]

Does anyone know if renderman 5 works for Maya 4?

[Liquid X]

I just went to Pixar's site and it didn't say anything about compat with any version of Maya at all. So, sorry I am no help.

[Avatar-3DT]

I did played around with Lightwave and it gave me a headake, but I would never rule him out, he's got some neat tricks. Maya is cool and have a lot of feature that blow my mind but I stuck with 3dmax and I don't think I'll change it for something else. I would advice any newbee to try everything before deciding what works for him. (I'm wondering if I'm qualified to give this sort of advice)

Maybe tomorrow I'll post a draft with the next scene of the movie.
That is the house.

[RickStefani]

I really did like MAX. I think I have said it twenty times today but I will say it twenty one now. Have you ever had a scene go courupt in MAX? Even you increment saves all the way back to were all you did was draw a spline? All in all I did like MAX other than that little fact.

[Liquid X]

well, I have played with two of the 3 big name programs. I might play with max a lil. But I have been pretty happy with how Maya works.

[Daniel]

Great progress Avatar, looking forward to your updates.

Little Nicky, I did in no way say Maya was superior to Max or lightwave, it is indeed the artist that outshines the program. I myself having tried a few packages do like Maya better for it's intuitive usage, find it way more confortable to model with. :) Although I am trying to learn Max lately.

[anonuser]

Avatar, i'd love to see an animation maybe of him steping in to full moon light

[Liquid X]

I think an animation with him stepping into the light of a fire would look better. That way you could play with the lighting more, and still keep the dark mysteriousness of him in there.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, let me unveil the story I was thinking about:
Storyteller speaking, the image shows a full moon, clouds passing by. Next image, the eyes of troll looking around. Then his nose smelling around. Then is the scene with the troll steping throught the wood. Next, troll in first plane, from behind, looking from behind the bushes to a small house. Next scene, the house, inside, everybody sleeps. The masive troll passes in front of the small window. His face shows on the window trying to look inside. The door shakes under a strong hit. A growl comes from outside. The family (mother, father, a girl, a boy and a infant) wakes up.
The doors shakes again, then shaters under the hits. The troll gets in. Mother, father shakes in fear, the boy and the girl too, the infant cries as hard as he can, troll growl and tries to get in. Mother jumps to protect children, father go between his family and the troll. Troll growls again and want to grab father but something seems wrong with him. He retreat, hardly moving. In front of the house he watch in wonder his own arms and became stone. The sun is rising over the forest.
Children playing around, mother and father embracing themself, little one crawling in the grass... Birds come to sit on the statue of troll. The end.
This is what I've done until now with the house. The textures are just to give a general look.

[Little Nicky]

I like the story! Good work. How tall is the troll meant to be?

And the house is looking good too. Keep it up.

[wolfy]

I havent checked this out of late, but i really like the wooded scene. Not to sure about the house image my friend. Still its early stages. So keep on posting. Nice fire flys aswell.:D :D :D :xyz:

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, the house scene is only to its begining. There will be some wood fire near the house, a cutting trunk with an axe left in it, a patch of worked field, some more grass, clouds and bushes. I still think to add volumetrics again but I'm really reluctant.
Little Nicky, the troll is taller than the door of the house and enough masive to have problems trying to get in. When I'll start modeling the family I'll post a picture with the man and the troll as reference. But I tell you, the troll is really big. Do leviathan tell you something?
wolfy, the fireflies were very easy done; just a spherical cloud particle sistem with two glows on it. The animation of the fireflies aldo was a pain in the neck and it scrued two rendering sesions for me. Finaly I've made them to fallow a path with a space warp particle sistem and gave them bidirectional movement along the path; this way they spiral around eachother while moving away. maybe I'll render a animation and post it. As gif. can this be done?

[Little Nicky]

Cool! I can't wait till it's finished.

You can turn it into a gif ... you could just render each frame as a different image file, then bring them into ImageReady. You will loose a bit of colour information, but there can't be too many colour if you just crop it down to the fireflies.

Good work.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, this is the last pic of the walking troll. I'm kindda sick to work on him as long there are a lot of other things to do. Ofcourse, I'll tweak him some more but this is it I think.
Help me decide what to do. As I added fur to the character the rendering time jumped up to 10 minutes per frame. And that's only for this frame. I'm thinking to remove the volumetrics but I'm still uncertain what to do as the light does half of the night effect. It's also the one that draggs up the rendering time. What to do, what to do?

And one more think: I want to do some freeform animation with character studio but the pelvis bone does not move. Anybody knows why?

[Liquid X]

Avatar, you are doing a really kick A** job!
I cant wait to see the ending animation. Good storyline too.

[rage]

RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!! RENDER!!

i cant wait dude!!

cheers!:cool: :D :cool:

[Emperor]

Check that you are not in pose mode and that you select the diamond shaped item in the middle of the skeleton.

[Avatar-3DT]

Liquid X, I'm glad you appreciate so highly my work. Believe, I would really like to see some animation too as soon as posible.
rage, my friend, I'm glad you have time to visit. I also wish it could be so easy the rendering obsession you have (and wich I share too), but I stumbleb on another problem: as I cannot render everythink at once, I have to render on little parts, 10, 30 frames at once. Strangely, when I try to put them togeder, it looks like the frames between the parts are missing and the animation "jumps", if you know what i mean. I rendered the fireflies separatly (but I render it them all at once) and everything looked OK but this broken animation does not work and only the thought that I might have to render all the scene at once it makes me eat the walls. Ten frames - 2.30 hours. And the "troll in the forest" animation has 400 frames.
Emperor, thanks for the advice, I will surely try that.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, today I've waked up decided to render the entire troll scene. It took me all day to render 50 frames (and this after I took out the volumetrics and ease up on the fur and hair). I stoped it and wathched the animation. Guess what: ERRORS! The fur and the hair were moving frantic so I let the rendering to the day I'll upgrade my computer.
I started the work on the human man and this is what I've done so far. I know, it's not much but... well, I don't know what to say after but. Here is the pic.

[Liquid X]

He looks good, but I have a question. How come your models, and many others models, all seem to be cut down the middle? Are you designing one side then copying to other? The little modeling I have done so far, consisted of doing the whole thing at once. I was just curious if it would be easier doing a side first then copying over?

[Avatar-3DT]

In fact I do just one side of the character and then I instance it, not copy. Instance allow you to see the progress of your modeling on the both sides of a character aldo you work just on one of it. For example if you add a face to the original side, the instanced side will update imediately and a face will apeare on it too. Then I convert to mesh the instanced side, select the middle vertex on the both sides, attach them together and weld the already selected vertex increasing the wealding value until the weld gives me a smooth mid-section mesh. Got it?

[rage]

tyaaa, dude!

have any of u both tried the simmetry modifier??? it works lotsa faster thamn the instance tech (of course, if u have max 5.x)

cheers!!!

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok and a little update on the house. A lot to work on the textures and some more objects to add. Maybe some grass and a well.

[Avatar-3DT]

Wow, just by rage! Hy buddy! Thanks for the tip, I'll try it!

[Liquid X]

I use Maya, so rage's tip doesnt really help me. But Maya might have something similar, so it might. As for the instance thing, I have never done anything like that yet. I am still a beginner, so I am learning. Thanks for the good representation of it though.

[RickStefani]

Maya has duplicate. Just make sure the pivot is set on the plane you want it mirrored across and scale it to -1 in the X-axis. make sure you have it set to instance and it will do the same thing. If you just want a copy latter make sure it is check to copy. If you do not know how to move the pivot you press insert and then hold down V and then it will snap to a vertex. One very usefull tip is also when you are creating a surface. Under modify there is a center pivot tool.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok guys, small update on the house. The ground texture obviously need seriouse work but this is a temporary one so bare with it.

[wolfy]

looking like a nice little house now dude, so whats next on the scene????:D :D :D :xyz:

[Avatar-3DT]

The troll will stand in this scene right beside the tree trunk in the first plane, watching the house. Then he rise up and passes infront of the camera. Next scene: in the house.
I started to model the human, remember? Here is the first criticable update on the man.

[RickStefani]

Very stylelized. Very good. You have that moonlight down to a science. Looks very good. How did you get the hightligts without washing the light across the scene?

[Knut]

avatar man, this is awesome. you work so fast! anyhoo, i think the eyes are a bit too high on the guy there, and the ear looks weird.

keep on the good work dude!

[Rakanishu]

Wow you have really been cranking out the content here Avatar. One thing I would like to see is a nice skin texture on Groggthor. I think that would really tie things together.

Keep up the awesome work:cool:

[Daniel]

nice, it's pretty much the look of a guy that lives in a shack that you would expect. A bit oafish and all. :D

[ido]

hi avatar :) this is looking good :)
It is going to be an awesome image :dance:

[Liquid X]

Avatar, you are doing GREAT! I agree with Knut though on the guy. The eyes just a lil too high. And the ears look like they are romulan. No offense. The house scene looks awesome. Very good work with the lighting.

[Avatar-3DT]

Wow! Invaded by the masters! (humble bow).
RickStefani, there are just three omni's in the scene: one, raytraced, highlightning the eyes, one in the front left, map shadowed, shadows on ofcourse, a last one in the back, up and a little left also, shadows on, map shadows. So you see, no big deal!
Knut, Harrrrgh, master of troll! For ears you right, me no good making big slappy ears, for eyes you wrong, me wanna make him look like he got wake up from nappy nappy sleep!
Rakanishu, first of all, really like your nickname. Any relation to the small, pesty little swamp creatures from Diablo2?
Second, sorry, but a more detailed sking would really test my pacience and would probably end by putting in jeopardy the life of the ones near me. I don't own a wacom table my man, drawing just with the mouse. So you can understand why the simplicity.
DanielB, he must be, he's living alone next to the woods!
ido, I hope it will be a nice image in an awsome animation. That if I will pump a lot of RAM in my machine.
I try to keep you posted with my progress. Today I've been real busy, first time I haven't modeled something in ages!

[Liquid X]

Oh yeah almost forgot. Thanks for the explanation and info Rick! :dance: :dance:

[RickStefani]

No problem on the tips, Thanks fo rthe explanation. Omni lights with raytrace and shadow maps. It has been my experience that those really kill render times. Just as much as volumetrics.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok guys, maybe you've heard about the tutorial "It's all in the eyes" on 3dLuvr. No? You should realy check it. It explains how to do pixarish eyes. I adapted the tutorial to my modeling skils. I take a sphere, I convert it to editable mesh, rotate 90 degrees on x scale, select the two round sections on the middle, detach as a separate object, name it cristalin. Copy/flip new object on y scale, ad a normal modifier, rename new object iris. Detach small, round inner part and name it pupila. Flip it on y scale. Select turn by turn every object and tag the marginal vertex.
Add to pupila one black 100 self-lumination material, add to iris whatever you want (a map will do fine later), add to globular eye a white/yellowish color and a fallof reflection with fresnel, set high values for glossines , add a raytraced material to cristalin, add same fallof reflexion with fresnel, same glossines value and there you go, you have eyes. The raytraced light that excludes everything is essential to get the right amount of light through the cristalin, on the iris. And raytrace means corect shadows. Mapped shadow= ugly effect.
I cannot assume any credit for this explanation. The original tutorial can be found at 3dLuvr.com and belongs to Adam Baroody.

[RickStefani]

The light is great though. Real good night feel to it.

[Liquid X]

Avatar, you are a saint!. Thank you for posting a site with some tuts.

[Avatar-3DT]

No saint buddy. Just trying to give back a little. When I first start modeling in max I had no books, no net to acces tutorials and the tutorials of max gave me the basics, but not enough to create what I wanted. So I know how though is to learn something on your own and how much time consuming. Sometime you'll give up this kind of knowledge. And know what? You'll feel good.

[Corth]

Hey Avatar, are you still looking for help on the cloth? go here. (http://www.chaossw.com/software/software.html) (www.chaossw.com) and download simcloth (its free). It does the same thing as the Max cloth dynamics, but easier to use (I found). These explanations are from the simcloth help file, but I believe when I was looking around in max for the dynamics, I saw this as well, so it should be the same whichever way you go.

Deflector - deflectors are not affected by the SimCloth3 modifier, but they influence dynamic (cloth and rigid body) objects. SimCloth3 tries to keep all dynamic objects outside of any deflectors.

Cloth - cloth objects are flexible objects which can change their shape.

Rigid body - rigid body objects can't change their shape, only their position and orientation. Currently they are approximated using a simple spring model.

So for your loin cloth make it cloth, the belt and the troll would then be the Deflectors. I hope this helps. Cool thread by the way :)

[Avatar-3DT]

Corth, thanks a lot, I already have simcloth and I know how to use it. Thank you kindly for the help and the explanation. I'm glad you enjoyed the thread. There is a lot more to come.
Until then, what I momentarly think is the last version of the house. Improved textures, more grass, a new sky, clouds and tweaked lights. Morning's coming boys! Troll really chosed a wrong time to hunt.

[RickStefani]

Your lighting is still perfect. It looks like night. And not the standard movie night were they shoot it during the day and then add a dark filter.

[Liquid X]

Out of Curiosity, would Simcloth work on Maya?

I really like the little well that you added, it really adds some realism to the scene.

[Emperor]

Doesnt maya have a intergrated cloth simulator???

Btw ahs any of u max users tried to use the havoc dynamics that come with Reactor thats intergrated in max? It's dynamics are really good and the cloth stuff is great!!!

[NoJo]

great work man!
i would'nt want to be there in the middle of the night :p

[Avatar-3DT]

Thank you all.
The well was a mercyfull act. I thought that none is stupid enough to live far away from a source of water. Simcloth I'm pretty sure does not work with Maya. But again, I could be wrong.
I used cloth simulator in max and I still have head akes because of it. The water simulator by the other hand is awsome.

[Daniel]

that's a nice scene, extremely well light. The only thing that seems to come to mind is that the wall looks way too shiny. Although that is just my opinion.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok Daniel, more details please. What wall? The wall of the house? Or did you refere to the well but got the word wrong?

[viragoLDR]

I think the lighting in that last scene is a bit too light actually, and moonlight doesn't give off such crispy and harsh shadows, especially not in forested area's. Your moon is fairly low, yet it is very dark. Normally with a moon that low, the sun is still setting :)

The whole thing give a very nice fantasy atmosphere however, but I would try to darken the moonlight a tiny bit, and softening up the shadows. Also try a falloff on the shadows, so they fade out towards the ends.

http://www.level-d.com/human%20house%20last.jpg

One last thing about the lighting, if you look at the small picture I attached, you'll see where I think the keylight is (approximately). The "X" is the approximate direction of the keylight, the arrows point in the direction the shadows are being cast. The shadows just don't match up with the position of the moon. I doubt a lot of people will complain about it, most won't even notice, but once you do notice it, you won't easily overlook it again =) And well, it's easy to fix too, just move over the key light =)

I really like the softness and warmth of the small lantern outside the house, and the general atmosphere is really nice. The atmosphere in this scene is very similar to the one in the troll scene, so that's good ;)

(before you ask btw, I suck at setting up lights, and generally my scenes never get as far as a lighting stage =))


On a completely different topic. I noticed some discussion about max vs maya vs lightwave etc.. I myself have used 3dsmax, even used 3ds for dos before that, and about a year ago I switched to Maya. I wasn't looking forward to it, and it was a painful process, as the Maya interface isn't the easiest to learn if you're used to another program. Once I got used to it though, everything just started getting faster for me. This is just a personal experience, so someone else might be a lot faster with max, and some other person again might prefer lightwave. Basically it comes down to this, there IS no best package, just use what you feel comfortable with. And if you want to try a different package at some point, just do it, because knowing your way around through more then 1 package is excellent (most, if not all, studios use various tools for various tasks), just try to specialize in only 1 of them.

Oh, and if you want a good renderer for max, you could try Brazil (http://www.splutterfish.com), it has GI, radiosity, the lot.

Have fun ;)

[Daniel]

wall, what was I thinking. I was actually talking about the ground, don't know why I wrote down wall, lol. It's the ground that looks too shiny to me :o

[Liquid X]

Emperor I do not know if Maya has a built in cloth simulator. I do not know enough yet. I am just trying to find out to make my journey of learning Maya that much easier.

viragoLDR Very well said about the programs. It is something that I have thought the whole time. I looked at the programs and Maya seemed best suited to me for what I want to do in the end. Many have argued that Max is better, and the like, but I really just agree that there is no real BEST program. It's just whatever you like better and what works for you best.

Avatar I have thought the lighting of the scene gave it a cartoonish look, but I thought maybe that was what you were going for. If not, you might want to play with it. It still looks very good though.

[Dragot]

MAYA is known more for modeling and animation.
ware Max is known for Modeling and rendering.

mayas renderers suck, thats wy most professional who work in the biz that use maya use it just for the modeling and animation then finish it up in one or 2 other programs.

If Maya had Brazil, then i would say it was all around better then max but for now we are stuck with mentalray

[Avatar-3DT]

viragoLDR, first of all a bow of respect for you. Nice observation spirit you have my friend. And welcome to this thread.
You are right in the most of what you've said. I was thinking too the shadows are too sharp but there wasn't such a hurry to adjust such a minor detail. I will soften the shadows as you've said. As for the brightness, well it is a confusing step I have to do. Trying to learn something from the Troll, I've adjusted the light so that nobody would say that the image is too dark. You come and say the image is too bright... I have to think seriously on this problem.
The keylight is infact much higher (higher than the moon) but you've guessed the aproximatif position. You see, when I've started, the main light mached the moon position perfectly. But not all that is corect gives right on the image. The house was too dark... So I've decided to move the light upper and to the right of the moon hoping that won't be a visible adjustment. You have a very good eye, congratulation. You also have a very balanced, wise opinion on the 3d programs and that another point for you. As for the brazil renderer, unfortunaly, was closed for the public for a while now. So I don't have it.
DanielB, you are right my friend, the terrain in indeed very shiny. But I like the wet mud effect so I will let it like that.
Liquid X I don't want to achieve realism in my animation but I don't want a cartoonish looks also. Instead I want to go with my own style ('tho is arrogant of me to call it my style), that goes between comix and realistic look.
Dragot I will not start that debate again; there are advantages and disadvantages in any 3d programs. Its a personal decision what looks good and what works better. Remember: "The beauty lies in the eye of the beholder".

[sarN]

i personally liek the way it is lit, and if you are going for the wet mud thing, then it looks perfectly fine to me
i also agree with viragoldr on that the moon should be much higher up :D
a very nice scene itll be great for mr troll :D

[viragoLDR]

LiquidX : I've been in many many discussions about 3d packages. When I was still using Max, I was convinced that Max was the best ever. Then I tried other programs, and found out that other programs also have a lot to offer. Nowadays, I'm very open towards most 3d packages, as all of them of pros and cons.


Dragot : Maya is mostly known for it's very open structure and extremely powerful MEL scripting engine. With MEL, users can create custom tools for just about everything without a problem. That's what many people like about it.

As for rendering, Maya5 had some upgrades there. The default scanline renderer is still lousy, although with some playing you can achieve decent preview quality results. With some fake GI, you can actually get very good results.

Max has Brazil, but on the other hand, Maya has a choice of MentalRay (maya5 + MR integration is a lot better again) and Renderman. And we all know that renderman just simply kicks serious butt :D


Avatar : I've been training my eyes a bit recently to see details, I've some project in mind which got quite a bit more difficult after I started looking for details. As for the height of the keylight, I wasn't trying to estimate that part, just general direction =)

The lighting is very good, and I've read the rest of the thread, so I know your problem with the troll (personally, I though the troll was excellent when it was dark, I mean.. It's night, he's in a forest, there's really not that much light there :)). The lighting as it stands now works well with the scene of the troll, so you probably shouldn't change it. I'm also thinking, once you soften up the shadows and put a drop off on them, the direction of the shadows won't be that noticable anymore.

I noticed that Brazil was no longer public, and it actually is pretty expensive too. Then again, there's nothing that brazil can do that you can't fake :D And if that doesn't work, well.. Max6 will ship with MentalRay support.


SarN : I never actually said that the moon was per definition too low, but in a "real-wannabe" scene (which this isn't), the moon would indeed be too low. In this scene, it adds to the atmosphere and ehm.. drama (?) of the whole thing. Low hanging full moon is always very foreboding ;)

[Avatar-3DT]

Why the low moon? Simple:
First, the ghostly moon adds effect, as viragoLDR said it also. Second, it's a setting moon, a sign to show the viewer that morning is close. A little inside for the attentif ones of what its going to happen.

[sarN]

hehe the moon does add the effect...
i was just being a nitpicking pain in the ass :D

[Liquid X]

Dragot I agree that Maya is better known for its animation and modeling, and the renderers are supposed to suck. They seem to work ok for me, but I always use the mental ray renderer. I have noticed that Maya 5 has been a bit unstable, but I think I know why, and I am pretty sure its just my setup.

Avatar You have achieved the look you were going for. Its not quite cartoonish, and not quite realistic. It's right in the middle. I like the position of the moon, it looks good.

Too Everybody I think if you notice that since you have been in this you have probablly been noticing a lot more things about graphically done items. Like I noticed a mess up in the Hulk movie where his shorts disappear for a brief moment and you see solid green buttcheek. It's just brief, but you would not have noticed it before. Or at least I wouldn't. Do you guys and gals agree?

[RickStefani]

I have done a bit of hiking under a full moon and the shadows are very distinct. THe ground does somewhat glow. I would not change a thing. Just my opinion.

[lilCara]

Avatar, io am ramas cu gura cascata, e prima data cand intru pe thread-ul asta.
Am o intrebare: esti inregistrat la VisualArt.ro? Nu te-am vazut pe acolo...
Marpha scenariul, am citit ce vrei sa faci, si pana acum arata super tot, personajele si scena, are atmosfera ;)

I hope you won't mind for speaking romanian, will you? Hope not... Just wanted to congratulate another romanian

[Avatar-3DT]

sarN, it helped me buddy. Just kept me an inch off the seat.
Liquid X, the best way is to apply this critic stand on your own work. Its a dangerouse trip 'cause you can find that everytime you finish something it doesn't like you anymore and you wanted redone.
RickStefani, thanks for the support. But there are things to be changed and I will change them if I really don't like them. But sometimes you cannot keep an objectif eye on your own work. Here is where you all come, my friends.
HaLcIu sigur ca nu ma supar ca ai scris in romaneste. Eu unul sunt mandru ca sunt roman. Nu, nu sunt inregistrat pe site-ul acela dar promit sa-l vizitez. Ma bucur ca ti-a placut scenariul, sper sa-l duc la capat. Nu sunt grozav intr-ale animatiei. Viziteaza-mi thread-ul 2d, sunt mai bun cu creionul decat cu computerul.

Ok guys, here I go, the house with the light infront of the moon and with softer shadows. C&C. Please!

[Liquid X]

If you are gonna keep the lighting like that. I would definitely add a light stand kind of thing by the well. Otherwise it is just not very visible and loses a lot of its effect. I would also add a light stand by the little shed thing. Maybe even internally, meaning hanging in there. Just a thought. Take it or leave it, Other wise the scene looks great!

[Avatar-3DT]

There is a light right near the well. That's how I got the bearly visible light effect. I thought myself to add a light inside the house, but the effect will be minimal and the in rendering a new light would add some considerable timing. So this ( aldo a good ideea) its a tough decision.
I will increase the secondary light just a little to see how's it looking. Thanks Liquid X!

[Daniel]

this scene is coming along very nicely, but it's too bad that it's that dark, a lot of the effort and detail goes unoticed, to me anyways, I got problems seeing everything and my screen is already at it's brightest.

Liquid, you right Maya 5 does have some problems with stability of the renders, it's not just you. Sometimes if I just use the normal renderer in maya 5 is just crashes or timesout. I'm going back to 4.5 myself.

[RickStefani]

You could do the light inside the building with a plate that has self elumination. Just make a set of curtains and eluminate (with self elumination map) with shadows and sillotette of things inside and play with the ellumination setting to make the light appear to flicker during the animation.

[Liquid X]

A lot of it depends on how much light you see it with. If I turn my laptop screen certain way I can see it better. I don't know if that is how it looks to you or what.

I didn't mean that you should put a light in the house, I meant in the shed next to the house. Right now, I can't see but one wood plank of it. It looks just like its part of the woods to me. Just a thought.

[Avatar-3DT]

DanielB, no problem, I will render a brighter scene for you my friend. ;)
RickStefani, very, very good ideea. But there is something you didn't know. Back then, poor people illuminated their houses by two, or three means:
1. Fire in the fireplace.
2. A small candle made from sheep fat.
3. A small lamp with oil.
But oil was costly. My peasant uses a candle. But candle is costly too, so he keeps it on just for the dinner and then, as he and his family goes to sleep, he fire off the candle. So its total darkness inside.

You'll see in the inside scene, there's only some amber in the fireplace and all the light will be from outside. It will make the scene more gorrish. But thanks for the ideas, they are indeed greate.

Liquid X, if I plane to do it a short its important how everybody sees the movie. I see it perfectly on my monitor, but there are so many monitor types!

[LocoMan]

It looks too dark here too, and my monitor is at its brightest already (without tweaking with the gamma on the drivers, that is).... but what little I could see looks really good... :)But oil was costly. My peasant uses a candle. But candle is costly too, so he keeps it on just for the dinner and then, as he and his family goes to sleep, he fire off the candle. So its total darkness inside. Well, there's also artistic license.. if you see most movies/series, there's a slight bluish light on in the scenes that are supposed to be pitch dark.... :)

[Liquid X]

Ever since I got my new laptop I have just been playing and surfing on it. I will check it out on my main system which has a Viewsonice 21" pro series mon. If it don't look right on that, I will comment further.

[viragoLDR]

The light is good on my screen here (16" EIZO lcd). It's maybe a bit dark, but it's night, so it makes sense =) On the other hand, according to the story it's nearing dawn, so maybe an ambient light (set to some dark blue-ish color) might help.

DanielB & LiquidX : I have no problems here with Maya5, if anything it seems more stable then 4.5 .. If you render something, and you switch window or something, the renderview will go blank, and it seems to have crashed, but it hasn't. The renderer goes on, it just doesn't display anything. This is a known problem with the windows version, all other versions don't have it.

I'm running a p4 2.8GHz HT, 1024Mb pc3200 ram, and a lousy gf4 ti4600 (looking to upgrade that soon =)) and winXP. The only time maya5 crashed on me, was when I was accidentally rendering on 2 instances at the same time :roll:

If you're into it, you could install linux on a 2nd machine, or run a dual boot. Maya runs VERY smooth on linux.

[domino]

I am new here, but have observed for awhile. Maybe it is just me, but the troll scene where everyone was debating about the darkness....it seems just a bit flat. Not completely, but there is a flat feel there. WHat did you do as far as your lighting? Have you used fill lights and back lights along with your key lights? This might help solve the flatness problem just a bit AND it can help you keep your scene a bit darker without losing alot of detail in the face, musculature, and general pose.

Then again, maybe you did use these lighting models...!

[domino]

I looked rather carefully at the whole scene. I remember you saying you weren't going for a very photorealistic look, which is ok. Another reason why I think the image might have looked flat to me is because of the -DOF- (depth of field). It seems like the nearest foreground leaves are almost seen with the same amount of detail as the bark on the tree behind the troll.

[Avatar-3DT]

LocoMan, really cool avatar. As for the light, as I've said it, there is a secondary light in the. I will givi it a little more multiplier.
In the next scene will be at least 3 lights, but it unnecessary to add more rendering difficulty to this one as the interior scene will be a completly separate set.

Liquid X, man, you have a real arsenal there. I try to keep up with my old Funai 17".

viragoLDR, you blow my mind. What are you some ambulant studio of grafics? Man! I bearly move my behind with a louzy Athlon XP 1600+. Not to mention the 128 DDR I have and my poor GForce MX 440. God! You live in the Matrix man!... In fact I think you ARE the Matrix!

[viragoLDR]

Avatar : I was doing some subd modelling, and my old system got SO slow after a while, I just had to upgrade... So, I didn't eat for about 2 months, and managed to get hold of some new stuff :D

On a sidenote, I have max5 installed, so if you need some help rendering, I can help you there :)

[Daniel]

lol I know about how it can seem to have crashed if you click somewhere else Virago, I'm not a noob :p I got a pretty strong computer too p4 2.2ghz, 2048 ram, g4 video. But I guess I shouldn't blame maya entirely, maybe it's the scene that's corrupted or something. I just won't risk it, gonna go back to 4.5 (not like I paid for maya 5) and go to 5 if I wanna try mentalray.

PS. I can't believe your calling your g4 lousy dude, I recently upgraded my pc and I was proud of that video card! lol (yo7 got 3200 ram? you sicken me :p )

[Liquid X]

ViragoLDR I have to say that you and I are closely matched for systems. I have a 17" screen( BTW what is EIZO?) P4 2.8 with HT, 512, Geforce FX 5200 and Win XP. I will probably be changing the OS to Win Server 2003 soon. I recently got it, and installed it on the main system A Athlon XP 2500+, 1 gig PC2700 ram, Geforce 4 ti 4200, system and it runs great. Very stable and the list of built in features is forever long. It is also much easier to configure things than win 2000 ever was. I just installed it and already have a media server running, a file server, a mail server, and my web page is all hosted on that machine.

As for the stability of Maya, I don't know. It may just be the copy I have is like that. I will be working in it, usually changing a setting here or there, and it will just dissapear. WITH NO WARNING!. needless to say I save often.



Avatar You have no idea. The two systems listed above are just my personal systems. I also have one more desktop (my sons), and another laptop(my wifes). I am getting ready to make another system probaby about a 2000+XP system in the bottom of my big screen cabinet for watching the divx movies and what not. I think I will also move the server duties to it since it obviouslly won't have a problem with it. And these will all be setup to handle rendering duties if need be. Also dont hate on that Geforce 4 MX card so much, its not to bad of a card. I used to have one. I think I my friend has a Funai, its not bad. Good res and refresh.

[Liquid X]

Daniel, you are surfing same time as me again. You just reminded me of something. Virago, is your copy a...paid for copy of Maya 5? I kinda wonder if that is not why mine is crashing. Also, is yours complete or Unlimited. I have Unlimited.

[viragoLDR]

DanielB : for maya (or any other 3d program using OpenGL) the gf4 ti4600 is a load of crap really. A lot of functionality isn't supported. I patched it to run as a quadro4 as well, just to try that, but that only slowed down the whole thing :roll:

As for the memory, I got 2 pc3200 512MB matched dimms (corsair). I figured I'd just buy decent memory for a change. Before these 2 dimm's, I was stuck to pc133 sdram. Imagine the difference =))

LiquidX : Unfortunately, my maya is just a copy :( .. I was saving up to buy it a long time ago, and when I was just about ready to order it, I got told that I was most likely going to be fired from my job. Needless to say, I needed the money I saved up to actually stay alive, so I never got around to buying it. I was planning on buying complete, but at the moment I have unlimited. I still don't have a job now (it's been 1.5 years already, and I just can't seem to find anything here), so it's rather hard saving up to buy a program like Maya with the small amount of money I get every month...

Oh, and EIZO is a japanese brand, they do mostly monitors, and they're known to have some of the best LCD screens on the market. They're only rivaled by Mitsubishi LCD screens. They're very expensive, but the screen I have is amazing, definately worth the pricetag =)

And don't switch to win 2003 server if you want to run maya btw. By default, win2003 server won't allow installation of directx, or allow any hardware acceleration. There's some ways to set all that stuff up, but for me it wasn't worth it. A lot of my hardware also wasn't supported, so I decided to stick to winXP.

[Avatar-3DT]

Guys, I'm impressed... You got pro's machines. Work them like hell as I do with my poor computer that slaves almost 16 hours a day, sometime 3 days in a row if there is rendering to do.
I do hope for an upgrade soon, maybe in a two weeks. Thank you all.
Liquid X, I'm proud of my Funai 'cause, beside that it's working greate, it was more than a cheap deal. I took it from a second-hand store for just 40 bucks. And I don't hate my card, it's working fine, but there is a bitterness in my heart thinking there are so much better card out there waiting... :(

[Liquid X]

Avatar Wow, you did get a good deal. When I bought my 21" I got a good deal on it as well. It was a refurb that a monitor source of mine had refurbed. I know the guy personally, so he gave it to me for $175. I know that is quite a bit higher than $40, but I went online that night and a used one off of ebay sold for over $400 and that was before shipping, which I guarantee was at least another $50. So I didn't do to bad.

The card is a good card, and don't feel like that. Just think, if you bought a top of the line card right now for $400-500 american cash. You would feel just like you do now about your card in another couple of months when the next one comes out. I would try to at least move up to a TI card. Now these numbers are for the 3D gaming cards, obviously the workstation cards are even more money. Is all I am trying to say is be happy your not running like a Rage card or (GAG) onboard graphics. :D :xyz:

[Avatar-3DT]

Liquid X, I try not to think much about this. In my country a montly revenue is about 75$ so I'm lucky to have a computer.
domino, I didn't avoid you my friend, I guess we were browsing the thread simultaneouse so I didn't saw your post.
The Troll scene has four lights. The main one is a blue target spot with volumetrics and projector map. There is a white omni used for backlighning, there is another omni with raytraced shadows just for the eyes, and there's a third omni used to soften the target light, with a light blue color and a low multiplier.

Ok guys, the never ending darkness issue... Here is another house poste with more light on it and a changed filter.

[Bre]

That looks so much better. I can actually see some of the detail that you put into the environment that I couldn't make out before.

I don't know if it is more realistic or moody with everything as dark as it was before, but personally I like seeing what's going on so the way it is now is perfect. Any lighter though would start to look bad I think.

keep it up!!

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks Bre, I think you're right. Too much light can spoil the scene. Stick around, maybe tommorow there will be a troll in this scene, who knows?

[RickStefani]

I really like the glow in the mist from the moon. There would not be much light with the moon that low. With the animation it should be easier to see stuff when there is motion. Looking forward to the updte with the trol.

[Avatar-3DT]

Hopefully, I'm kindda tired to tweak this damn scene.

[Avatar-3DT]

Ok, finished the man. It looks dumb but sturdy. Next, I'll have to add to him clothed, wife and childrens:D.
No, seriously, I'll do the wife next. Ok, that sounded th wrong way! No, I'll model, the wife, after making some clothes to the man. Ah, The picture is not correct. I've tweaked the deltoids and the heels. Next time, clothes on.

[Avatar-3DT]

If anybody has any ideea where to find a tutorial to show me how to make a complex hair style arangement, please, help. The man, the woman and the childrens need your help! They don't wanna be bald!:eek:

[RickStefani]

The age out question. I like the style.

[Knut]

id try and make the hand rounder before i called him finished:roll:

[Liquid X]

I do like the lighting now. It is just bright enough that you can see details, but dark enough to keep it looking good. The guy looks good, but I agree with Knut, the hand does need to be a little bit rounder. It just seems flat. Other than that he looks good. Have you found anything to help you with the hair yet? If not I will look through all the tuts I have downloaded and see if I have anything. You run Max right?

[TyKeiL]

looking great :) excellent definition, some of the renders are too dark for me to see tho

[Avatar-3DT]

RickStefani, the age would be around 40's, maybe late 30,s. I'm glad you like him.

Knut, Liquid X you are right about the hand. I didn't even noticed aldo I worked alot with the character and the renderings. Thanks for pinpointing the deffect.
Liquid X, still haven't found enything on that but I'm playing with the parameters. I would be in your debt if you can help me. The problem is that I need a more advanced tutorial, not the standard "lenght of the hair", "how to make feathers" tutorial. I already have those.

TyKeiL, I know buddy, this is a long and aparently endless debate about the illumination. And I don't think I will ever get the renderings to please everybody into the illumination area.

I've started the modeling on the woman. The man is already dressed but it is a simple shirt so I don't really think there is need to update him. Maybe after I will rigg and texture him.

[sarN]

the bridge of the nose looks very flat... is she going to be like skinny as a rail type woman?

[RickStefani]

Cool start. From the way the model is started I would say it is more a stocky mountain women. The guy is not a super model so she isn't going to be either. Just a guess. I agree though about the nose. This is going to be a cool animation but , no offense, is your computer going to be able to punch it out? It would be a real shame to have all this awsome modeling and animation but find out it is going to take six months just to render it.

[rubberduck]

It's coming along nicely, looking good:D

[Liquid X]

good start on the woman.

I will look through my tuts ( I got a ton ) and if I can't find one in my stuff, I will search for one. I can usually find tuts for almost anything.

[Avatar-3DT]

sarN, yes, it's flat indeed but in the beggining was intentionate. Now...
She will be a hardened woman, big breasts, wide hips. She had three kids, remember?
RickStefani if you haven't noticed by now I tend to be a very stuborn person. So if in the end it will take 6 months to render, so be it. I just want to do something to worth a big download. Thanks rubberduck, keep in touch.
Liquid X, I would be gratefull if you do that.

Well, I promised sometime ago a picture with the troll and the man togeder as a height reference. Here it is. Added some decor just for fun.

[Liquid X]

looks good. I looked and looked, the best hair tut I could find.

http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc_p2/shag_hair1.asp


I will keep my eye open and see if I can find anything else

[Avatar-3DT]

Thanks buddy, already have this but it does not help me much with my woman. I'm gratefull you're doing this for me.

[RickStefani]

Great size relationship. Big but not overly big. Overly, Is that a word?

[Avatar-3DT]

I think it is. And the size was just common sense. The trolls are big, but they are not giants and a giant has around 15 feet height. So the troll must be smaller, around 10', while the man, tall as it is, must have around 6. So I guess I'm pretty there.

[Liquid X]

hehe, "I feel so pretty, so very pretty." (Song)

I just thought of that from your last sentence Avatar. :) The sizes are good though. That is exactly how I would of thought it to be done.

[Avatar-3DT]

Isn't that from "My Fair Lady"?

[Liquid X]

I dunno, maybe. I watched that "Anger Management" movie with Adam Sandler, and he has to sing it. It was funny, so it stuck.

[Avatar-3DT]

"Ok sir, I will ask you to calme yourself now":D
Great movie!

[Avatar-3DT]

Really small update on the woman character. I hope there are no puritans amongst you. Anyway, she'll be dressed in the end.

[rubberduck]

Your project is coming along nicely:D
The face on the woman looks a little weird, the shape of it.
Do you only have the front of it made?
Nice body sofar:D

[rage]

hey bud! your modeling skills are getting better and better!!
but i agree, the shepe of the head is funny, and the nipples are like, to low i guess...but its a good start...now tweaking is on the road

congrats bud!

[anonuser]

I have to say, great so far, i think the stomach looks odd, it might just be me and the breast hang low, must be an older woman?

[RickStefani]

It must be cold in the cabin, Haha. Some issues to work out, like around the chin and eyes but all in all not a bad model. I like the pooch you gave her. Looks like a bigger girl that is half suching in her stomache.

[Avatar-3DT]

\rubberduck infact the face was build using a reference picture. So that shape really exists on someones head :D

rage thank buddy. If you're saying that it means I really improved :o . As for the nipples I must admit with shame that I took a peak to a neighbour breast. She has three kids (between 6 and 13) and she just gave birth to a 4th. I guess its pretty hard on the nipples to stay up with all the breast feading done around them.

anonuser, well, she's not young. And I would be gratefull if you can pinpoint what looks odd with her stomach

RickStefani, she's a big girl indeed. And the nipples... well I thought in perspective. Adrenaline can give you hard nipples. So, a troll, breaking in your house in the middle of the night (or at the end of it) can stur some adrenaline in any of us.

I'll post update on the man and the woman tomorrow. Thanks for all your crits, I am in debt.

[anonuser]

well it looks like it bulges out but the sides cave in, that looks very odd to me. Like toned in just that area.

[Avatar-3DT]

The Woman, as I promise.

[Avatar-3DT]

And the man with a simple Shaghair hairstyle and a Shagfur beard.

[rubberduck]

Looking good!:D But I think the womans proportions is a little off:o :)

[Daniel]

really cool, and I agree about the woman, you don't have to make her super sexy, but she should be just a bit more proportioned, lol

[RickStefani]

Cool cool. I agree on the women. But I think you should take her to be overweight like you are rather than more porportionate. Her neck and face seems ripped. Her boobs should sag more with more fat around her waste and sides. Girls with bit legs do not tend to have a gap inbetween them. I like his hair. can we see a close up please?

[Liquid X]

actually, my wife has a figure about like that. I would broaden the stomach a lil, and I mean just a lil. Then it would look just right. right now she is just a little too slim for that big of hips. But I have dated women like that too.

[Avatar-3DT]

I'll work on the woman, I promise. Here is a close up on the man. I must admit I had to adjust a few things but it looks ok for now. Remember, there are no maps on him yet and the fabric texture on the cloth its just a temporary one.

[Liquid X]

hes looking real good avatar, keep it up!

His forhead does seem like it bulges out just a little too much. Other than that, hes good.

[Avatar-3DT]

It was a personal choice the shape of the fore head. I've been tweaking with the woman a little bit (man that sounded nasty!). Here is the update.

[Liquid X]

lookin good av.

[RickStefani]

Looks better. She looks great now. With the skin texture on the guy it will look great. I hate doing hair. Not bad at all. Are you going to keep his hair that dark?

[Avatar-3DT]

I was thinking to use a map of somekind but I'm not all decided yet. In the next days I will work on the woman clothing and hair and with her and his maps for skin and bump mapping.

[Zytrex]

Whoa dude... lotta work in thie thread. I don't know how I missed it. I'm gonna have to go through it all later and try to come up with something to say. Although I can say that the troll looks great.

[Daniel]

Post updates!!! UPDATES!!! geez I'm gone a week out of the country, and when I come back, you don't post anything new! For shame! ;) Lookin forward to new stuff man :p

[Avatar-3DT]

I know, shame on me. But summer is gone and my parents have a little orchard and some cornfield at countryside and they needed my help. And when I got back home i was to tired to do anything. But tonight I worked a little on the woman (added hands) and I finished the 2d dream creature. Tomorrow I plan to work on the woman's clothing and draw a little, so come again tomorrow night.

[rage]

its always good knowing that u will post, dude

[Avatar-3DT]

As I promised, the update on the woman. She's still bald but I added clothes and eyes and finished the hands and legs. Already got the map coordinates so next I'l start drawing the maps.

[Liquid X]

She looks really good, I like how the clothing drapes on her body. It is very realistic looking.

[Avatar-3DT]

Well, it just happened. i now work to add the hair and I think I will have to redone part of the troll. Then mak the maps for the woman and the man. Then make the childrens. My God! I'm dead meat, aren't I?

[Liquid X]

It sounds like a lot, but once you start doing it , it won't be so bad. Good luck, and just have fun doing it. You aren't on a deadline, so enjoy yourself. :D

[Rych]

See avatar if you look at it that way you will never get done............just remember no one shares the same love for your baby but you!!!

Rych

[rubberduck]

It's looking great avatar:)
But isn't that dress a little to nice(looks like a cocktail dress to me) for her?
The man's clothing looks like a sack or night gown, kinda:) I just don't see her wearing that dress out in the woods:D

[Avatar-3DT]

Liquid X, most of the time I do.

Rych, for my kindergarden you wanna say! They are so many!
rubberduck, in fact is not a dress but a night gown. And I'm working on the mans clothing. I'll add some short pants on him. And the texture will make all the difference. Now the fabric looks like silk, but I'll make it look rougher in the end. Anyway, thanks for pinpointing that. Before I didn't plan to give much attention to it until the last moment.

[viragoLDR]

Are you doing the cloth with a simulator or modelling by hand? If you're doing it all by hand, I would suggest making the cloth really simple and a lot more rigid than what the woman's gown looks like now. Without a cloth simulator, you'll be manually keying every single frame with a night gown like the one she's wearing now =)

It looks cool though ;)