Rules Discussion

[Marty_McFly-3DT]

Here is where we are going to try and take a look at ther rules of the Speed Modeling Challenges and see if we can come up with something easy and basic to understand. These are the rules as they stand now.

1, Each week we'll post a subject for you to model along with a time limit on how long you should spend on it. Spend no longer than the allocated time then post a trender of your model. No cheating, we are relying on your honesty here and the idea of speed modelling is to simulate a "real world" environment. If you are working on a project and asked to show a concept model you'll need to be able to get somewhere near the target in the allocated time. Your submission should be a model created especially for this challenge and not one you have stored on your hard drive.

How you interpret the brief is up to you as long as the final model conforms to what we have asked for. Any images of models that do not match the brief will be removed and the poster disqualified.

2, You may enter as many times as you like as long as each model is completely new and uses no components from other entries. Entries using models which are not original will be removed and the poster disqualified.

3, Your entry may contain as many views of your model as you like but it must include a clear and easy to see wire frame of the mesh before any smoothing/subdivision has been applied. Please use a screen grab. No other method is acceptable and any "wire renders" or wireframes we can't see properly will be removed and the poster disqualified.

4, You must include the following details with each submission: software used and time spent creating the model. Any further information is voluntary but posts not containg the required information will be removed and the poster disqualified.

5, Post only one image submission per entry which must be no larger than 800x600 pixels in either landscape or portrait format with a file size of no more than 100k. These images must be uploaded to our servers using the "browse" button on the forum reply page. Do not link to external images files. Larger than the maximum size or posts containing links to external images (other than for reference materials) will be removed and the poster disqualified.

6, The creation of displacement maps, normal maps and any splines drawn out in an external program other than your modeling software are to be included in your modeling time.

7, Time spent on rendering or texturing or building a scene in which to display your model is not included in the alocated period to allow those with slower machines to participate on an even playing field. What we are looking for is the quality of the models you can produce "under pressure". If your model is not complete, you can still post as long as it's recognizeable.

[Marty_McFly-3DT]

Originally Posted by mphare

Let's cut to the chase.
Are those of us using a SW generated wire render disqualified because we didn't use a screen capture?

Ok, the rules on wireframe renders was in place well before I became a Moderator here. As far as I know, I don't think anyone was DQ'd because of a rendered wireframe. But since I've been judging, I may have DQ'd 1 or 2 people. But for the most part... I've really over looked rendered wireframes as long as the wireframe was clean and visible. Unfortunately, I view that as a fault on me.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the rule got into place... but here's my take on the whole thing. A wireframe needs to be clear and visible and unsmoothed. I haven't had any real issues with the wireframes submitted by Classic Gamer so far. They've been clear and visible.

Now on the other hand, Tokai has a point when it comes to different methods of modeling. If some sort of spline modeling technique was used, a rendered wire doesn't show off the details of the process. And if you modeled it that way, I'm sure that you would want people to know how it was done to show your abilities.

So in the end, I think that it's best that we stick to the original intentions of the rule and use only screenshots of the actual workspace that the model was created in.

Marty

[Phantom.cz]

I rendered a higher poly model without any hypernurbs or smoothing with renderer and than I grabed the screen. Try to match them: (sorry for qualitty, I couldnt get into a limit. both images have cca 50kb)

Notice that in the second pict. are poor visible some lines and edges (its not caused by compression.)

[tanks45]

Originally Posted by Phantom.cz

I rendered a higher poly model without any hypernurbs or smoothing with renderer and than I grabed the screen. Try to match them: (sorry for qualitty, I couldnt get into a limit. both images have cca 50kb)

Notice that in the second pict. are poor visible some lines and edges (its not caused by compression.)

Get a better screen grab utility. There are many out there, some are free. Check out downloads.com. They have several good ones.
BTW...it would also help to capture with out the viewport grid on.

[Phantom.cz]

Originally Posted by Marty_McFly-3DT

So in the end, I think that it's best that we stick to the original intentions of the rule and use only screenshots of the actual workspace that the model was created in.

Marty

Wow, that was fast discussion... You've told us your judge before someone could enter and tell his opinion.

Well, well, well, what I can do, I will conform myself.

[Nehumanuscrede]

Hmmm perhaps this is a good time to go back over the rules.


Here is my take on them:

The wireframe rule. Here is where things can get a little tricky. Sometimes, I look at the end wireframe result of a model I am ready to submit. I look at it in ghosted / wireframe / solid wireframe modes. When deciding how to submit the model, I do so with the judge(s) in mind. While I can submit the bare wireframe, everyone in here knows it can be difficult to see especially if it's a dense mesh. While the rule calls for a ' wireframe ' many of the applications today have the capability of showing the wire on top of the solid in OpenGL. This is MUCH easier to see than a wireframe only AND it's not rendered. I'm simply trying to make it easier on the judge(s) and fellow competitors here to see how I went about modelling something.

Consider the attached image. Same model. On the left is the OpenGL view with the wireframe overlay. It's a real-time preview of the model in the viewport. A screen capture was used to get it here. The right side is the same model in wireframe mode. Now I don't know about you, but the one on the left is FAR easier to see how it was done than the one on the right.

Another issue we can think about is the number of submissions coming from everyone. If you think about it, by submitting only ONCE per person during the competition, we could achieve possibly two things. Practice and model all you wish during the week, but only submit what you think to be your BEST work.

1) It would greatly reduce the number of submissions the judges have to
sort through. This reduces the time needed to judge any given week as
well as allowing the judge(s) to retain some sanity during the very popular
weeks.

2) It might open the possibility of being able to utilize a larger size render.
Emphasis on *might* here. With fewer images to store per week, we may
be able to push the render sizes to 1024 x 768 or larger per submission.
A larger size image means a bigger wireframe to be able to look at.

While it might be more complicated than necessary, consider a ' fixed ' render size to submit with the overall image ? Ergo an 800 x 600 image with a rendered 'subimage' composited onto it of no larger than Y x Z ? This will ensure wires are emphasized over the final render.

The non-smoothed wire is a no brainer here. Once the wireframe has been ' smoothed ', it is near impossible to see how it was built. Yes, it looks better but it defeats the purpose of submitting the wire to begin with. Granted, a lot of folks have to work in dense meshes to achieve a result ( booleans come to mind as well as cloth ) but try to show the mesh both before and after if possible.

The displacement maps rule is fine. As is the spline creation rule. If you're in Z-Brush or another similar application, then you're still sculpting or modifying the model. That should count towards your creation time.

Thoughts ?

[tokai]

Originally Posted by Nehumanuscrede

The wireframe rule. Here is where things can get a little tricky. Sometimes, I look at the end wireframe result of a model I am ready to submit. I look at it in ghosted / wireframe / solid wireframe modes. When deciding how to submit the model, I do so with the judge(s) in mind.

Exactly. Sometimes its a bit difficult to see things in normal wireframe mode, so chosing a solid wireframe mode might be better (no need for a wirerender here.. at least in cinema4d, can't tell for other applications).

ClassicGamers little bunny is a perfect example why you should post a non-solid wireframe when required: the little fellow has a tail.. you simply cannot see that in the wirerender or a solid wireframe shot.

Anyway... I usually post both a solid and a non-solid wireframe screenshot when required (see f.ex.: http://tokai.binaryriot.org/pictures...eamfurnace.jpg ). That way you cannot make a single thing wrong. If your model has nothing on the back a solid wire will most likely do, if you can clearly see how the model is build up (one mesh or build up from many parts, splines, etc.).

So for the rules I would continue to stick to the screenshot rule with all its (IMHO) positive points.

regards,
tokai



About the quality issue with the lines. I grab the screen in larger resolution, then load the screengrab into Photoshop, select the backdrop colour with the magic wand tool, inverse selection and copy'n'paste the now selected wire into my composition picture... after that use transform > scale tool to make it smaller. That way you get automatically a higher quality (a bit Unsharp Mask (50%-60%, 0.3 radius, 0 threshold) after scaling down helps further to improve look).

[tokai]

Originally Posted by Nehumanuscrede

Another issue we can think about is the number of submissions coming from everyone. If you think about it, by submitting only ONCE per person during the competition, we could achieve possibly two things. Practice and model all you wish during the week, but only submit what you think to be your BEST work.

1) It would greatly reduce the number of submissions the judges have to
sort through. This reduces the time needed to judge any given week as
well as allowing the judge(s) to retain some sanity during the very popular
weeks.

Well... I don't think this is nice (except for the judges :P ). Practically this could mean no models would be posted in the beginning because all are modelling like crazy over the week... which would concentrate all submissions (the remaining ones) on last day the challenge is running. I like to see how ppl make progress with an idea and learn things. In the shoe challenge last year I submitted 4 entries.. and you can clearly see how I started to understand the modelling magic, when looking at them in a row. ;-)

While it might be more complicated than necessary, consider a ' fixed ' render size to submit with the overall image ? Ergo an 800 x 600 image with a rendered 'subimage' composited onto it of no larger than Y x Z ? This will ensure wires are emphasized over the final render.

I don't like this idea either, because I like to play with layout in the composition (though I mostly use my fixed, prepared layout) and I guess other ppl do too. It would just block additional creativity, IMHO.

regards,
tokai

[ClassicGamer-3DT]

OK, well i will just take a screenshot in the future, it was just my opinion that the rendered wireframe showed the model clearer, but i will in the future challenges keep it to stricly screenshot only.

To be honest it doesn't bother me too much, as long as my modelling is shown clearly for everyone to see how i made the model(s). So i'm just going to get on and enjoy the challanges every week

Kind Regards

CG

This attacthed is my differences, so either way, as long as i can model and compete, I'M HAPPY!!!

[thegimp]

I'm glad this thread started up...i just got outta the shower and had an idea I'd like an answer on...

I didn't see if the rules clarified on this idea, but... is it against the rules to model something of a random nature, say a baseball glove, computer screen, bottle of glue o r whatever. WITHIN the hour time frame.. and then hold on to it and use it as a submission for a later challenge if it falls within the confines of the weeks challenge?

i haven't done this yet..but i was wondering the moderators take on this...

[tanks45]

Originally Posted by thegimp

I'm glad this thread started up...i just got outta the shower and had an idea I'd like an answer on...

I didn't see if the rules clarified on this idea, but... is it against the rules to model something of a random nature, say a baseball glove, computer screen, bottle of glue o r whatever. WITHIN the hour time frame.. and then hold on to it and use it as a submission for a later challenge if it falls within the confines of the weeks challenge?

i haven't done this yet..but i was wondering the moderators take on this...

This was addressed in #1

Your submission should be a model created especially for this challenge and not one you have stored on your hard drive.

That says it all.

[hammering3D]

thegimp - U must submit only models that are made after the chalenge start ... models made before the chalenge start are not good...

[thegimp]

oops..my bad...maybe i should have read the last line..hehe

[DerekSc]

I have typically been using a non-transparent view of my wires because, as Nehumanuscrede (you got a nickname we can use?) pointed out, it's easier on the eyes and easier to see how something was modeled. In the end, however, it's not a matter of what we feel looks good, it's up to Marty. So I'd like to hear his thoughts on the transparent wire vs. solid wire issue, since he's the one who has to inspect each of them.

[Daye]

"(you got a nickname we can use?)"

Actually I do. My normal altar-ego in the online world is " Daye ". I'll start logging in with it instead It's easier to type than my latin one. lol