>: CG Forums on 3dtotal - The best forums for CG artists :.
threedy forums home
 


Go Back   3DTotal Forums > Help, Advice and Chat > CG Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 13-08-2009, 11:44 PM   #1
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
Have to learn 3D Studio Max in a week. Any Advice?

I'm coming from Maya. Need to learn Max well enough to at least model efficiently; enough to teach a class of highschool 3D beginners. Any tips, tricks, or general advice for the UI and shortcuts would be very much appreciated.

I have used 3DS in the past, but only minimally for some texture baking.
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 02:10 PM   #2
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
Is Max just more hotkey driven than Maya?

In Maya I usually do my modeling with most, if not all of the interface hidden. All the modeling tools I need can be accessed with right click + "shift", "ctrl", or "alt" and the standard "q","w","e","r" keys. And the way all the functions are displayed in a circle, everything is essentially a quick mouse gesture away.

But with Max I feel like I need to dance around the keyboard, or click my way through the interface to do just about anything. My left hand shouldn't have to make leaps across the keyboard to perform basic functions. It should stay on the "Alt" and "q","w","e","r" keys.

It can't be just me that feels this way, every other 3D app I've used from Modo, Silo, to Zbrush has a keyboard layout that doesn't require my left hand to do a balancing act across the keyboard. And aside from maybe a smoothing hotkey, I've never felt the need to set-up a custom hotkey to perform a basic function in Maya. But from what I saw at a 3D Studio class I sat in on the other day, setting up custom keys seems to be an all to common 3DS Max practice.

Or am I just missing something? I really do like certain things about Max. Parts of the interface are definitely more streamlined than Maya, and some of the poly tools are just plain and simple better. But I still need a whole lot less hot-keys in Maya to do the same basic functions without needing to click through the UI.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 14-08-2009 at 02:19 PM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 02:32 PM   #3
Perversonality
Nick/Spud/Spudmonkey
 
Perversonality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reading(ish), Engerlandshire
Posts: 2,820
Thanks: 25
Thanked 70 Times in 67 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Gold: Contributing to the forums with 2,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! Thumbs up!:  - Issue reason: For doing a great job in helping out! Photo-Real modelling - Bronze!: 3rd Place in the photo real challenge - Issue reason: 3rd Place in the photo real challenge Low Poly Game Art - Gold: Winner of a low poly challenge! - Issue reason: or Excellence at Low Poly Art - Well Done! Low Poly Game Art - Bronze: 3rd place in a low poly challenge! - Issue reason: 3rd place in a low poly challenge! Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Winner of a speed modelling challenge '035 - Turn On & Tune In' Speed Modelling - Silver: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge '035 - Turn On & Tune In' 
Total Awards: 8
It's just unfamiliarity with the shortcuts. Max uses Q, W, E and R to switch between select, move, rotate and scale which makes a lot of sense to have those operations grouped together as you are going to use them a lot when poly modeling. Also, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are used to switch between vertex, edge, open edge, face and element (in edit poly) so having those next to the scale/move/rotate keys is also convenient. Once you have worked out the keys you need to use for whatever you are doing then it does become second nature very quickly.

It will take more than a week for you to become comfortable with the shortcuts, but for training newbies that shouldn't matter as you would mostly be concentrating on how the stack works, basic modelling techniques, unwrapping and texturing and perhaps some basic work with bones.

Perhaps if you post the list of what you want to cover in the time you have available then people can provide you with some useful tips for each section. That might be more worthwhile than a list of all the things you can do!
__________________
My homepage mostly designed to show off my <400 triangle low poly models

My physical model shop: Buy my crap
Perversonality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 02:43 PM   #4
Psycho Mantis
R.I.P. James Gandolfini
 
Psycho Mantis's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,608
Thanks: 62
Thanked 58 Times in 50 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Psycho Mantis Send a message via MSN to Psycho Mantis
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Gold: Contributing to the forums with 2,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason:  Threedy Top Poster - Bronze: Contributing to the forums with 100+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Eye: Producing art worthy of being linked from the frontpage of either forums or 3DTotal.com - Issue reason: For some brilliant comments on the Lara Thread. Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Won in the SMC 34 - Mix Me Baby One More Time Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Silver: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Silver: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason:  Speed Modelling - Bronze: 3rd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: 3rd place in a speed modelling challenge! 
Total Awards: 10
i guess it realy depends on what you are doing - or to get this right - why not create several keyboard layouts and then load them when you need em?

the qwert keys in my layout have assigend shortcuts to them, not the standards that come out ouf the box. in fact, i have setup my shortcuts this way: buttons qwer,asdf,yxcv,^, so i can do it all with my left hand, without moving it. i tried maya once, and this "star" or whatever it was, where you select what you need was kinda annoying to me - i hate it when there are things on the screen that hide my objects. so going by shortcut can be done "blind", and is not interruptive to the operations you do.

but i do this with any programm i use. make those functions you need the most accessable very easy - thats all. and learning shortcuts by hard is never a bad thing.

oh and for your week task - what aspect do you have to cover? rendering, animating, modelling (spline, nurbs, poly? ) i would concentrate on that. a week is a little too less time for max.
__________________

Trollpost or GTFO!
Psycho Mantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #5
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perversonality View Post
It's just unfamiliarity with the shortcuts. Max uses Q, W, E and R to switch between select, move, rotate and scale which makes a lot of sense to have those operations grouped together as you are going to use them a lot when poly modeling.
Maya is the same thing. All that is fine and dandy. It's just whenever I need to say, make a cut, extrude, soft select, weld, etc. I either have to use some new hot-key or click it in the UI. The UI is nice, but constantly clicking off to the side wastes time and takes up unnecessary screen space.

The difference is when you right click in maya, everything is context sensitive. Instead of using 20 different hot-keys to switch between these tools, you only need 3, right click + "ctrl", "alt", and/or "shift".

Just about everything you ever need to do can show up in that circle, and it never looks any more complex. Quick mouse gestures can virtualy bring up any tool for you in Maya.

In comparison with Max:

(ugh... ugly slow drop down menus)

To be fair, Max's right click does have a lot of common tools, but it's total weak sauce in comparison. Maya's can do just about everything, and it's less bloated and way faster to navigate. The alternative is of course using tons of what would be otherwise unnecessary hot-keys .


Perhaps the most nonsensical thing to me is the hot-keys for changing the view (persp, top, side, etc). Who in their right mind thought it would be a good idea to place them anywhere but together on the keyboard? Even Blender got that one better than Max. Maya has 1 button, "space", for this instead of 4. It's perhaps the most genius thing Maya's UI has going for it.


Anyways, I'm just complaining for complaining sake. I'm still going to learn the software. Like I mentioned eariler, I'm still discovering plenty of beneficial things Max has in comparison. It makes me upset with Autodesk more than anything, Max could really benefit from some of these workflow enhancements unique to Maya.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 14-08-2009 at 04:03 PM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 03:57 PM   #6
NitroLiq
Registered User
 
NitroLiq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Bronze: Contributing to the forums with 100+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! Thumbs up!:  - Issue reason: He has bin really good help in transitioning from max to maya 
Total Awards: 2
Don't feel too bad, Crisp. I'm going through the same thing. I've been wondering if there's some sort of quickstart "Efficient modeling workflow in Max" type of guide out there. I'm so used to the marking menus and hotbox, any time I'm working in Max it's pretty painful. Modo was even worse....I REALLY want to like that app so much but it really makes me feel like a total spaz after having used Maya for so long.
__________________
"Terminat Bora Diem, Terminal Author opus."
NitroLiq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 04:33 PM   #7
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
Just watching people use Maya without making use of the context right-click menus is enough to drive me crazy. For me it's the equivalent of watching someone using a computer with no shortcuts. Makes me go insane.

Now with 3D Studio I'm forced to not use it anymore. It feels like I've got a hand tied behind my back in a fist fight and my only hope of winning is to get really good at fighting with one hand.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 14-08-2009 at 04:38 PM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 04:41 PM   #8
Psycho Mantis
R.I.P. James Gandolfini
 
Psycho Mantis's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,608
Thanks: 62
Thanked 58 Times in 50 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Psycho Mantis Send a message via MSN to Psycho Mantis
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Gold: Contributing to the forums with 2,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason:  Threedy Top Poster - Bronze: Contributing to the forums with 100+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Eye: Producing art worthy of being linked from the frontpage of either forums or 3DTotal.com - Issue reason: For some brilliant comments on the Lara Thread. Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Won in the SMC 34 - Mix Me Baby One More Time Speed Modelling - Gold: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: Winner of a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Silver: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! Speed Modelling - Silver: 2nd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason:  Speed Modelling - Bronze: 3rd place in a speed modelling challenge! - Issue reason: 3rd place in a speed modelling challenge! 
Total Awards: 10
dude - stop... i think we misunderstood ourselves. i would recommend you to model with shortcuts, so you dont need those rightclick menues. honestly - i almost never perform an action wiht the help of the quadmenues. everythign essential is mapped to the shortcuts.

learning to model with keys is like going to a knife-fight with a gun
__________________

Trollpost or GTFO!
Psycho Mantis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2009, 04:53 PM   #9
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
I total agree, in Max doing every important action with a hot-key is bringing a gun to a knife fight.

It's a little different story in Maya though. I still use hot-keys, it's just a whole tool-chest of them is not needed to model quickly. The difference is I dance around with mouse gestures, whereas you dance around the keyboard. Both take some getting used to and can be equally as fast, but I'm just not there with Max yet.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 14-08-2009 at 05:10 PM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2009, 09:13 PM   #10
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
I gotta say, thank God for these Graphite tools in Max 2010. A lot of the tools I can't live without in Maya are included here, such as "swift loop" and some the more advanced selection tools. Plus of course a whole lot more that Maya doesn't have by default.

I definitely chose the right year to learn Max. Without these Graphite tools in all honesty I would have felt pretty let down by Max's standard tools, at least without buying the same stuff with polyboost.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 15-08-2009 at 09:16 PM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2009, 12:17 AM   #11
SgtHK
Vertex Violator
 
SgtHK's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 332
Thanks: 27
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Send a message via MSN to SgtHK Send a message via Yahoo to SgtHK
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Bronze: Contributing to the forums with 100+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Eye: Producing art worthy of being linked from the frontpage of either forums or 3DTotal.com - Issue reason: Producing art worthy of being linked from the frontpage of the forums! 
Total Awards: 2
I've been using Max for 3 years. I haven't bought Max 2010 yet because of the lack of plugin compatibility when it came out. But now since Plugins like Afterburn have been written for Max 2010, I'm definitely getting it.

I've never used Maya so I can't say anything about it. Learning the hotkeys in Max is easy, most of the time. I'm gonna give you something that's incredibly useful but not so obvious to learn.

See this little button under the modifier stack?

This is the Show End Result button. It shows the final result no matter which modifier in the stack you are currently selecting. It's most useful if you applied smoothing to the model but you are still modifying the polygonal model underneath.

You can bind a key (let's say the SpaceBar) to this button so that you don't have to aim your cursor for that little button whenever you want to see the end result quickly. And it's easily done!

By default, the space bar is bound to the "Lock Selection" button. If you don't use lock selection very much (or at all), you can bind the space bar to a different function.

Go to CUSTOMIZE>>>Customize User Interface
Look for the "Show End Result" function" and simply bind the space bar to it.


And now you can quickly switch from polygonal model to final smoothed result in the flick of your thumb!

You can also bind other keys to other functions this way if you feel uncomfortable with them. That way there will be less dancing around the keyboard

PS: Also some more useful hotkeys you may or may not have discovered yet
ALT+A = Align Tool
ALT+X = Make selected object transparent
ALT+W = Expand selected viewport.
ALT+Q = Isolate selected object
CTRL+C = Make camera from current perspective view.
F2 = Make selected face's highlight only on the edges (if you are in Polygon mode in Edit Poly)
F3 = Wireframe view
F4 = Make edges visible on shaded view.

I hope this helps!

Last edited by SgtHK; 16-08-2009 at 12:32 AM..
SgtHK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2009, 03:38 AM   #12
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
Wow, thanks SgtHK! That's some very helpful advice! I've been wondering how to create a hot-key for the turbo-smooth for a while now. Found many of those useful hot-keys on a 3Ds Max website, but that turbo-smooth is definitely not something I would have found anywhere.


On an unrelated note, the more I use these Graphite tools, the more I've been thinking about how Autodesk could have streamlined the interface even further. Many of them are super useful, but none are hotkey-able for some stupid reason. Either way, it'd be pretty insane to make hotkeys for all the useful polyboost tools; there are too many of them.

Autodesk clearly wants people to use the split-off menus as their shortcuts, but I've been using split-off Menus in Maya for ages and I can tell you there is a faster more space efficient way.

Here's my dream UI Mockup:

Shift+ctrl+Right Click would bring up circle menu. Drag and drop the graphite menu items you use most into the circle for quick access. Design the circle the way you like it.
Move your mouse in the direction of the graphite menu you want to use, tools pop up.

The graphite tear-off menus right now take up too much screen space and can make Max freeze for up to a second when you switch modes (vertex, object, edge, etc). My solution wouldn't require Max to redraw all those buttons every time there is a switch, saving wait time.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 16-08-2009 at 03:58 AM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2009, 04:47 AM   #13
M575
n00b and proud of it!!!
 
M575's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 350
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via MSN to M575
I want from Max to Maya. All I can say is Maya is FAR MORE shortcut driven than max. Maya is great. The default shortcuts are good enough, where in max it's a bit :\ Also, as you mentioned, in Maya you can access ANYTHING with your mouse buttons / ctrl / shift / space. In max, in my experience you can't. When I say everything I don't mean "most" I mean, in maya, you can access EVERY single thing that you see around you in your UI, plus more (hidden menus which can only displayed one at a time on the top menu if that makes sense, ie, animation menu, polygon menu, surface menu.. etc)

Also, I hated the Maya UI because I thought it was too ugly. Boy was I wrong. It's functional! far more than Max. I used to swear by max, moved onto maya and within a month, I can't use max because I am too frustrated by it!! Maya is easily more efficient..

Having said that, you say you NEED to learn it.. if it's only basics, then just do some of the tutorials hahaha..

And seeing as you're stuck with it, figure out the most used keys, maybe even match them up to your maya hotkeys, and then add the extras such as extrude and such which aren't in your right click menu the same way they are in maya. (yes the most common functions, such as extrude, ARE in the menu, but if you use maya, you'll see how different they are!)
__________________
Portfolio / Demo reel
photography work

---
Maya / Zbrush / CS5.5
M575 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2009, 07:21 AM   #14
Crispy4004
Registered User
 
Crispy4004's Avatar
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,121
Thanks: 4
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Awards Showcase
Threedy Top Poster - Silver: Contributing to the forums with 1,000+ posts - Issue reason: Target reached! The Golden Grenade IV: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! - Issue reason: For participating in the Dominance War IV and successfully finishing, well done soldier! 
Total Awards: 2
I think I've got most of the major hot keys down. I don't like to switch them up too much because when you need to move from computer to computer helping students, re-assigning them is a major pain. I got to learn to deal with the basics as much as possible.

I completely agree with you about the comparisons. Granted I'm no avid Max user, but they are from what I can tell, valid claims. Autodesk wouldn't be trying to streamline Max's interface now with the Graphite tools if this wasn't the case.

I think there are definitely certain things that will put Max users off when using Maya, like the finicky Split Polygon tool (Cut tool), or how the "target weld" is not advertised in the open, or even all the unnecessary buttons. Probably worst of all would be realizing that the extrude tool creates the side faces even before pulling anything out.

But I gotta say, Max users trying out Maya will have a lot more cool things to discover in the first few sessions than vise-versa. For instance a Max user opening up Maya's Material editor (the hypershade) might just be a little confused, whereas a longtime Maya user opening up Max's Material Editor will recognize the dated shader building workflow we ditched 4 years ago.

Last edited by Crispy4004; 16-08-2009 at 07:37 AM..
Crispy4004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2009, 08:57 AM   #15
M575
n00b and proud of it!!!
 
M575's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 350
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via MSN to M575
lol. it's true. I've gone maya and I won't go back. I knew A LOT about max, so I have fair expierence, though I stopped using it at 2008. So things may have changed a bit since, but I recall trying to press "w" for transform, and it didn't work.. :s stick to maya! more efficient

If it's teaching in the classroom, maya allows you to carry around your config file, so max should have same abiltiy. First lesson = teach kids how to load up your config file. tell them once they are comfortable using max, they can THEN customize their own.
__________________
Portfolio / Demo reel
photography work

---
Maya / Zbrush / CS5.5
M575 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
all images displayed on this site are copyright the original artists and may not be reproduced, copied or published elsewhere without their express permission