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Old 27-01-2010, 10:11 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergov View Post
i have some questions

1) Is it allowed to modify finished models in Zbrush/Mudbox to create normal/displace/etc maps from it, or will it count as modelling not texturing ?

2) If I decide to put the model is some kind of environment that needs to be modelled, should i include the creation of environment in modelling time or could it be adressed to rendering/texturing stage ?
You can use Zbrush to create a normal map which will fall under texturing.

An environment is not part of the necessary requirements and so time spent on this will be attributed to the rendering /texturing stage.
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Old 27-01-2010, 02:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-3DT View Post
You can use Zbrush to create a normal map which will fall under texturing.

An environment is not part of the necessary requirements and so time spent on this will be attributed to the rendering /texturing stage.

What ? normal map fall under texturing ? with no time limit ? I don't think this is the spirit of hi poly speed modeling challenge.
I think U should clarify this because is a new rule that I think all of us old speed molders did't take in account and personally I hate to be true cause then this will become a kind of sculpting or low poly challenge, and those challenges exist already.
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Old 27-01-2010, 03:53 PM   #33
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The nature of the challenge centers around a time limit which does not include lighting, rendering or texturing.
This is why I believe that any normal mapping should fall under texturing which is an optional aspect.
The finished submission requires three components: final render, clay render and wireframe. This means that if a normal map and high poly model are used they will fall under the banner of texturing and hence the lower poly version will still need to be submitted and will be the mesh that counts ultimately.

Likewise if a nice texture is created, it is not a criteria, meaning that the essence of creating a good mesh within the time limit is still the focus of the exercise.

I hope this makes sense but I am open to any feedback.
I believe that by including normal mapping under texturing it would still keep the essence of speed modeling at the heart of the challenge.
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Old 27-01-2010, 04:20 PM   #34
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I understood, tnx for the fast replay, just I think it should be specify somewhere in the rules because I am sure many of us don't know this thing, because in the old speed modeling system the normal maps where count in modeling time since they alter the model.
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Old 28-01-2010, 01:41 PM   #35
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Concerning normal maps outside modelling time... I think you are opening Pandoras box here. The reasons are:

- This is speed modelling challenge
- Beauty render is compulsory
- Public voting decides who will go for final voting

With this I want to say, that modelling aspect of the competition may be lost in low poly models with awesome sculpted normal maps. I believe that was reason for moving normal maps to modelling time in original rules.

I believe that with normal maps you can pretty much lift the time limit and allow sculpting, becasue normal maps allow you way around both. You can fully "sculpt" model with normal map, and you can add all the geometry you didnt manage to make in time with it.

Its your call, but if normal maps are allowed, we may expect totally new type of entries next month. Well you can deffo expect that from me (unless its organic theme, as I dont have sculpting software yet). But it wont be speed modelling challenge any more.

Oh dont think I am putting a foot on brake of evolution here... if memory serves well, I was first (or at least among top ten if not right away first) to use normal maps in speed modelling competition back in the old days after "Doom 3" was released.
Before normal maps were outlawed. Its time consuming, but the results...

Anyways your call. Either "see you in speed modellign challenge" or "see you in high poly modelling challenge"

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Old 28-01-2010, 02:18 PM   #36
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my input in this is simple - i've never done normal maps nor applied any to the model. hence i won't be a part of SMC's until i can grasp and learn it enough to be able to compete with the rest.

The point behind speed modeling is really modeling, not working your way around with textures. Yes beauty render is mandatory now, but as we've seen you can poly paint the model, or just shade it, and it will still be considered a beauty render - wihout the textures.

Again this is not because poor little roc hasn't got a clue in the 3D world. It's because i came here with the knowledge of Autocad in which no one worked and isn't working up to this date. I managed to do some good models and was judged by them. I moved to max and continued on my route.

What i'm saying is that implementing normal maps in texturing time will keep new members and participants in a position where they cannot express them selves and have little to gain learning wise. It's easier to explain the modeling method than going through the process of concepting, creating and applying normal maps to basically a base mesh!
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Old 28-01-2010, 02:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-3DT View Post
You can use Zbrush to create a normal map which will fall under texturing.

An environment is not part of the necessary requirements and so time spent on this will be attributed to the rendering /texturing stage.
If my memory serves me right and it does, environment modeling fell under modeling time not texturing...

Again this is not because judged can't differentiate between environment and models, it's because the PUBLIC vote.

Let's take for example the following scenario

- i spend 4 hours in modeling the theme of the challenge
- i spend days on creating textures, applying them to the model or even creating normal maps to enhance or fully define areas that are lacking in details etc
- i spend another few days on creating environment to fully complement the model
- i finish the whole process by texturing and lighting the environment

Ofc you may think well the prizes are huge, and they are. You have a whole month to complete the work, and we do. But this is speed modeling challenge. Point of it it's to bring your concept across in the less possible time. I personally liked it better with time limit of 60 or 120 min, but i will adapt to 3 or 4 hours, or whichever time frame comes next. In addition making a clay render can be done in minutes and the final SPEED modeling project is done - for presentation, getting the point/idea across etc.

Modeling + normal maps and environment modeling that does not fall under modeling time, is surely a way to have beautiful results and stunning art work, but in my humble opinion it's a PROJECT not a SPEED challenge
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Old 28-01-2010, 03:00 PM   #38
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I think we should KEEP ZBRUSH TIME included in the 240minute time limit. If it were allowed then anyone can spend 29days on a super high poly MODEL and then simply normal map it or not for that matter since there is no POLY count.

This is a weird loop hole imho.

A slightly different, yet on the same subject type of issue.

I have been using the NVIDIA Filter for Creating slight normal maps in Photoshop. So I don't think this should constitute as modeling as it is strictly in Photoshop and there is no HIGH POLY Model being projected onto a low poly.
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Old 28-01-2010, 04:41 PM   #39
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Yup. Its 240 minutes from empty screen to full model. If you have empty screen with no vertex on it... then you have 240 minutes ahead of you
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Old 28-01-2010, 05:02 PM   #40
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Yup. Its 240 minutes from empty screen to full model. If you have empty screen with no vertex on it... then you have 240 minutes ahead of you
If you have 1 vertex then does that mean you have 239
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Old 28-01-2010, 05:12 PM   #41
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If you have 1 vertex then does that mean you have 239
Not necessarily. You can make one vertex and then push it around the screen for up to 240 minuts, which would leave you with 0 minutes to spare. But beware. If you push it one more time after that, you are disqualified.
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Old 28-01-2010, 05:13 PM   #42
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All of the points that have been raised are valid and there is merit in each of them.

Normal maps do present a unique problem as they can be considered part of the texturing process as well as directly enhancing the model.

As normal maps are not expressly forbidden in the guidelines I thought it reasonable to include these under the banner of texturing which is optional.
By doing so I hoped it would not be a critical criteria when voting alongside textures and rendering etc.

Texturing, lighting and rendering are optional but have the potential to enhance the beauty shots and affect voting. A normal mapped mesh could also affect voting, but equally so could good post effects and rendering.

I therefore hoped that by including normal maps under texturing that the final entries would need to include a clay model without any normal mapping and the wireframe as these are not optional.

I think the beauty shot is where the main problem lies as this can include post effects (and normal maps in this instance) which will certainly have a bearing on the votes.

It maybe that the rules will need to be reviewed and perhaps texturing, normal maps or both be disallowed to keep the focus on the modelling which is after all the central theme.

I welcome any feedback as I ultimately want to make the competition as fair and clear to everyone as possible.
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Old 28-01-2010, 05:57 PM   #43
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This is the last version of rules used before Monthly challenges. Its the version I have been using when making stuff for "monthlies." In my opinion it had most of the loopholes covered.
- Point 6 covered normal maps, displacement maps, and splines.
- Points 9 and 10 concerned prizes.
- Point 2 is invalid now, we can have only 1 final entry.
- Point 7 is also very important and attributes to one of most asked questions here. What I lacked in point 7 though is that the extra props or scene should not be included in wire render and clay render. I never included extras in those 2 renders so I would not confuse what has been done in time limit and what is the scene.

Quote:
1). Each challenge we'll post a subject for you to model along with a time limit on how long you should spend on it. Spend no longer than the allocated time then post a render of your model. No cheating, we are relying on your honesty here and the idea of speed modeling is to simulate a "real world" environment. If you are working on a project and asked to show a concept model you'll need to be able to get somewhere near the target in the allocated time. Your submission should be a model created especially for this challenge and not one you have stored on your hard drive. How you interpret the brief is up to you as long as the final model conforms to what we have asked for. Any images of models that do not match the brief can be removed and the poster disqualified.

2). You may enter as many times as you like as long as each model is completely new and uses no components from other entries. Entries using models which are not original will be removed and the poster disqualified.

3). Your entry may contain as many views of your model as you like and must include a clear and easy to see wireframe of the mesh before any smoothing/subdivision has been applied. Wire renders/ Cell Shaded or Screengrab wireframes are acceptable. Any wireframes we cannot see correctly will be disqualified.

4). You must include the following details with each submission: software used and time spent creating the model. Any further information is voluntary but posts not containing the required information can be removed and the poster disqualified.

5). Post two images per entry which must be no larger than 1280x1024 pixels in either landscape or portrait format with a file size of no more than 195k.
1 image for your wireframes and 1 for your clay combined with a optional beauty render.
These images must be uploaded to our servers using the "browse" button on the forum reply page.
Do not link to external images files. Images larger than the maximum size or posts containing links to external images (other than for reference materials)
will be removed and the poster disqualified.

6). The creation of displacement maps, normal maps and any splines drawn out in an external program other than your modeling software are to be included in your modeling time.

7). Time spent on rendering or texturing or building a scene in which to display your model is not included in the allocated period to allow those with slower machines to participate on an even playing field. What we are looking for is the quality of the models you can produce "under pressure". If your model is not complete, you can still post as long as it's recognizable.

8). Posting the same entry twice in a challenge is considered to be double posting and will result in a disqualification. When asked to fix a previous post due to DQ or any other reason, you must fix the first post, or delete it altogether and create a new one.
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Old 28-01-2010, 05:59 PM   #44
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I think it is necessary to introduce video recording! Its only 240 mins. Enough only 1 frame per minute. Your work will be only 4 mins video. And anybody can watch this.

No textures, no post. Only clay, wire and maybe studio render shots. It is important to make clear topology for smooth, but not beauty textures and some post effects. This is my opinion don't beat me
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Old 28-01-2010, 08:20 PM   #45
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I think it is necessary to introduce video recording! Its only 240 mins. Enough only 1 frame per minute. Your work will be only 4 mins video. And anybody can watch this.

No textures, no post. Only clay, wire and maybe studio render shots. It is important to make clear topology for smooth, but not beauty textures and some post effects. This is my opinion don't beat me
This is slightly unfair. Please allow me to elaborate.

In the real world studio situation, especially in the gaming world, 3d Artists are limited to the amount of polygons they can use to create a certain object. When it comes to speed modeling and hard-surface modeling, such as the current challenge, it is quite obvious that "most" people will end up with low-poly models, as I did. If you look at a low-poly car or an "all terrain vehicle" in our case, it will not look nearly as good in a clay render than one that is fully textured. In essence, texturing is an ESSENTIAL part of creating a sucessfull low poly model. A low poly model relies heavily on diffusemaps, specular maps, bump maps, and even normal maps to hide the blemishes of low poly modeling such as awkward smoothing groups and rough edges. So to say there shouldn't be any textures in a LOW-POLY challenge where the contestants are constricted to only 240minutes but are alloted 30 days in my opinion is slightly unnecessary and absurd. This is my opinion I'm not beating on you

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