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Old 25-01-2011, 01:01 PM   #1
needse
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do you get paid

hi everyone ive been doing 3d as a hobbie for a few years now and i am 100%self taught from the web and tuts .i am starting to get right into now and would like to do 3d as a career ,could peeps check my portfolio and give me idea of if my work is good enough to even start looking for a job in the industury or shall i just give up now ? also do alot of you on these forums work as 3d artists or is it more hobbyists

thanks everyone scott
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Old 25-01-2011, 01:15 PM   #2
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got some impressing work there bud, from modeling, lighting and texturing

for a portfolio side i would suggest you make something of a making off, to show of your process, and skills step by step to the finish.
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Old 25-01-2011, 01:39 PM   #3
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thanks rocneasta i forgot to link my demoreel kinda old but ill show it anyway

http://www.youtube.com/user/needse1?feature=mhum


do you work as a 3d artist rocneasta ? or just a hobby ?
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Old 25-01-2011, 02:35 PM   #4
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my primary job is a manager and an instructor

but i can earn a years salary in photography, 3D and design

mostly in that order since i've focused that way. At least for now
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Old 25-01-2011, 06:51 PM   #5
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come on help me out here please guys
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Old 25-01-2011, 07:01 PM   #6
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it works best if you're specific about your need for help.

about the asked questions "industry" is a wide spectre of possibilities and opportunities - if you mean Blizzard, Pixar or even a Hollywood based film studio best advice i or anyone can give you is, go to a specific site where you want to get a job and see:

- what they need
- build your portfolio around it
- don't show old stuff, only new and stuff you're proud off
- show them consistency in your work, not from brilliant to regular box
- meet their standards
- go beyond their expectations to get noticed
...

If by industry you mean architectural or design firm, then ofc, apply and if they need a 3D artist you will probably get it
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Greatrocneasta-3DT! Thank you:
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Old 25-01-2011, 07:10 PM   #7
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no i don't mean blizzard and the like im not that good , i realize my skills but don't really no where to put them and what category i would even come under. i hope this makes sense
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Old 25-01-2011, 07:28 PM   #8
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hi there . checked you portfolio and i can say you have some nice works. some i did like some i think should rest in your pc cause they spoil the good ones. as for a job in industry i'd say i've seen worse modelers get the job. you have skills but you have to improve if you want to get there. from my personal experiance sometimes realy awsome model makes less impression than a simple good one done fast.
and i think you shold choose a direction you want to improve. either you want to be a kick a$$ modeler, or a awsome rigger, or a texture artist ........ ofcourse it all depends if you are aplying to a big companie or a small one. smaller comapnies would want you to be good at several tasks . dont know the specifics of cg market in your location but as i see in your portfolio you could aply as a visualisation artists - you know, modeling rendering arch scenes and so on, comertial stuff,..... it would be handy for you to model some realy detailed models to show how awsome you can get . there was a similar thread at cg society and one user posted a realy good post that made lots of people think again and moved the society. i'll try to find it in my pc cause i sved it somewhere
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Old 25-01-2011, 07:31 PM   #9
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so i found it
for other users that will read it i want to say that these thoughts are not mine. they are from a industry insider veteran. his name i dont remember but this post did shake the cg society forum for a month.
enjoy reading and hope it will tuch your mind as it did for other people

One thing I'd like to mention is that a big reason that some artist work and others don't is because of their business skills. Unfortunately we in the arts, (whether it's CG, traditional, performance art, dancing, music) tend to only work solely on the craft and we never take the time to develop proper business skills. Promoting yourself, networking, finding leads, interviewing, sales, closing the deal etc., are all part of an art form that can be developed if you work on it and spend a little time reading on how to do them properly. Unfortunately, as artists we never take the time to learn these precious skills and sadly they aren't taught in art schools (they should be). That is why you have reps, managers, and head hunters, who spend their time schmoozing with art buyers and industry people.

Many years ago I had a fortunate turn of events disguised as a calamity. I went through a horrible divorce and had a sort nervous break down and didn't want to do art anymore. Mostly I didn't want to work or do anything except lie in bed. I went out and got a job as a real estate broker because I thought it would be easy. **** job, but it's a do or die business and nobody does it because they love it or because they want to change the world or leave a legacy. It's a business that is unashamedly done for money, nothing else. I did it for three years and the first year I starved and ate through my saving, even though I worked 7 days a week, 14 hour days! But, in three years I went from starving and eating through my savings to being the top producer at my office and even winning an award for it. It all happened when I realized that deals aren't just going to fall in my lap. Hitting bottom made me get humble and I started to read every book I could on the art of selling and salesmanship. I read books on closing deals, on business, on real estate, on interviewing and being interviewed, on marketing, self promotion, on networking and even books on body language, and how to make good first impressions, even books on how to get people to like me. I searched out people who were doing really well and I picked their brains for information. Then I applied this stuff to everything in my life. LOL! I even used some sales techniques I learned to get the woman who is now my wife, to go on a date with me!

Then one day I thought, "why am I being hateful scum?", (that's how brokers are treated) and thought, "why don't I apply what I've learned to getting back into my first love, illustration?". I had previously been very successful especially in the 80's, but it was totally blind luck and because of a pretty good skill level that I had in traditional painting. I had spent the early 90's in show business and had burned all my bridges in illustration and lost all my old clients during that time. But now I decided that I wanted to get back to illustration and I wanted to do it mostly in CG . (Very few people were doing that yet, but I saw the writing on the wall early on and I also am a freak for technology). In short I applied, these networking, interviewing, and closing techniques I learned in Real Estate to illustration and in six months I made more from illustration than I had done in the 80's in two years. I acquired several dedicated clients that I have to this day. That was over a decade ago and I haven't been out of work since. I actually have to turn down work month after month because I get too much, even in this economy. I've had to hire an intern and I outsource my billing and paperwork to India with a virtual assistant! And this is all without a decent website, actually it's a page of thumbnails that I haven't updated in many, many years. I don't even sign my name to my work. One day I'll put a real website together for vanity sake, but I don't need one, all my work now comes from word of mouth and my network.

I'd would like to humbly share some of the tricks I learned on getting work. I'm a freelancer and I primarily do 2d, but I think this stuff would work whether you are looking for solid employment or if you do 3d modeling.

First of all, know your industry. What are the companies that do what you do? Who are the people who do the hiring at these companies and what are they looking for? If you do paintings for book jacket covers, don't send pictures of Tom Sawyer to a place that does Romantic book covers, and don't send paintings of beautiful girls to a place that does children's fiction. That is why I don't use a website, because when make a connection with someone who has the power to use my work, I prefer to send them a specialized selection of what I do, based on what they need.

Cast a big net, but also spend time focusing on companies that you know you would be right for. Then make decide that you are going to do work with them. (I say "work with them" instead of "work for them" because that little subtle difference in attitude is the difference between you being someone who is a useful and valuable to their company or being a beggar looking for a hand out. Many artist go into an interview with their tail between their legs begging for a job instead of showing them how what they do is going to be invaluable.) Learn as much as you can about your target companies and the people who work there as you can. What projects are they working on? What programs do they use? What awards have they won? Who's who?
Once you know who the hiring people are, put a target on their backs. If they have secretaries, get friendly with their secretaries (in a respectful way). Be really nice to them, they are often the gatekeepers. Ask them for advice on getting to your target and how to best approach them. I've gotten tons of useful advice from secretaries over the years and they've set up meetings for me that I would not have ordinarily gotten. However, sometimes you have to bypass the gatekeepers. Try calling after 5pm or before 9am. Secretaries work 9 to 5, but the people who are your targets, often put in long hours and are very often still at the office long after secretaries have gone home.
Once you make contact, get the appointment by asking nicely, tell them what you do. If they tell you they aren't hiring ask if you can send them some of your work for their files. Ask them if they know anyone else at their company or any other company who could use the services you provide. Ask them if it's OK to show them work you do from time to time and tell them that you would appreciate their thoughts and crits. After all these people are human, and many like to help.

If you get a face to face interview, don't forget to ask for the job after you are through with your presentation. I can't tell you how many artists go into an interview show everything they've done and then just wait for the client to offer a job. You have to ask for it. And then after you ask for it shut your mouth and let them answer. I can't tell you how important that is. Ask for the deal and zip your mouth to put the pressure on them to answer. Joe Girard, on record in the guinness book as the greatest salesman, says, in his book, How to Sell Anything, "when you are done with the presentation, ask for the sale then shut up. The first one to speak owns the product". This one trick increased closings when I was doing real estate about 5000 percent! It has worked for me in the illustration field time and again, and I even used this trick to ask the lady who is now wife, for a date!

Every assignment you do, ask your client if they know anyone who would benefit from what you do and then ask if you can use their name. Call or email the people that are recommended to you and say, "I'm an artist, "John Smith" thought you might be interested in what I do, can I come in and show you? Then shut up and wait for the answer. If they say they don't have the time, ask if you can send a few samples of what you do, then don't forget to follow up a few days later. If they still say no, then ask if there is anyone they know that can benefit from what you do. Then shut up for the answer. (You should be practicing this all the time on everyone). If you get to show your work, don't forget to ask for the job. If they say no, find out why without acting hurt or being obnoxious, and ask them what can you do to make the work more suitable for their needs, and after they answer ask if you can do a few samples. Then shut up and wait for the answer. If they say yes, treat it as if it is your "obra maestra" your masterpiece. My wife, who is in Fashion just landed a $400,000 a year job in a fashion company using this very tactic. The company was so excited at the idea of her doing a few samples that they asked the other interviewees to do something too. Everyone else either did one or two drawings or they tried to pass off previous work. My wife, designed a whole line specifically catering to their needs and made a gorgeous presentation. The line is a name brand, so my wife went out and researched the person the brand is named after and was the only one to make a full presentation that was relevant. And it was stunning. They were incredibly impressed, especially the person the brand is named after. My wife is now the creative director of the Brand. All for going that extra mile.

This brings me to another point. No one goes the extra mile any more. If you are asked to do something, even if it's on spec, treat it as if your life depended on what you do. If you get a job at your desired place, even if it's the lowest level entry job, go full out. Then make yourself so valuable that they have to hire you or promote you because you are so valuable. It's called work for a reason, give that extra thousand percent and it will come back to you.

Also, your best leads are the people you already work for. If you do work for someone, make a card or a spreadsheet for them and put every piece of information you know about them on it. Ie, birthdays, assignments you've done, crits you've received, articles you read about them, comments they've made, etc. Always send a card from time to time. This should be something you do for anyone you made a connection with, whether it's a secretary, an art director, a head hunter, or even someone who just gave you a lead. There are tons of holidays that can be excuses to send a card with your work on it. Every year I make a Christmas card, a Halloween card, Easter, mother's and father's day (for clients that are parents), one year I even made a first day of summer card. You can be sure that very few people are going this extra mile and it's so easy, especially now a days with email and virtual assistants. Even if you land a job somewhere, keep in touch with your network, you never know when you will be pounding the pavement again.

At the interview, be alert, and look presentable with a touch of something that makes you look like an artist. Whoever is hiring you, has their own job on the line, and if they hire you and you aren't reliable, it looks bad on them. If two people with equal skills come in for a job and one looks like they are going to a basketball game (you wouldn't believe how much this happens) and the other is dressed very neatly and business like with maybe a pin or a tie that looks cool and artistic, who do you think will get the job? A friend of mine use to use his well-groomed long hair to make him look like an artist and counter-balanced that with a very cool, casual, tie-less suit to look like an artist that you can trust with a $200,000 job. He was a very successful mural painter and did murals for major movie theaters. I even worked with him on a couple of murals for several Sony and Leows theaters.

Once you get your foot in the door, make friends with your clients. Cultivate those friendships, they are part of your network now and people hire friends far more than they do people they don't know. My clients know my wife and they know my daughter and we sometimes invite them for dinner. I have clients that I call whenever there is a good art show in town and a couple of art buyers that I take to the Society of Illustrators shows every year. I have clients in Canada, Spain, Poland, Germany, and England and whenever any of them are in town, I make sure I find time to take them to dinner. This is really important.

Keep looking for leads and approaching contacts. this is of great importance and you should be looking and approaching people all the time. After all you are in sales. You are selling yourself as well as your art. And any good salesman will tell you, sales is a numbers game. Every prospective client you approach and ask for "the deal" is one closer to your being someone who does art full time. Don't be afraid to afraid to approach the top studios and companies. Sometimes it can be easier to get into a major company than a little fly by night company. But remember it's a numbers game. The effort it takes to make a contact at a major studio is well worth the effort. If you succeed in making contact with some one at a major studio, don't let that go. Cultivate it, keep in touch with them, show them what you do, ask for crits, and befriend them. I know someone who got a job at one of the major studios because they friended an artist there at one of the forums. He did great work and always posted on the same threads and gave and accepted good criticism. After time they actually became good friends and acquired mutual respect for each other's work and work ethic. When there was an opening at the movie studio, the guy working there recommended the other. The other got an interview and the rest is history. This kind of thing happens a lot more than you think. Don't be afraid to go after the Dreamworks and ILMs of this world. And if you make contact ask if you can show your progress from time to time. Big risks come with big rewards. If you never ask for work at ILM, you chances of getting it are 0. But if you do ask, you have increased your chances.

Funny how few people realize that they are what they are selling. You are your product. When you have a portfolio that goes that extra mile and the characters are thrilling to look at and are posed in exciting and imaginative ways, and you show your workflow and the UV and meshes are displayed in an interesting way, and your whole presentation is extraordinary, What do you think that says about you and your values?
Imagine two guys with equal skills, but one one goes the extra mile with work specifically geared towards their target, shows imagination, is creative, and has professional portfolio and the other person shows a portfolio with nothing in it but t-poses and a ton of work that is irrelevant... who do you think will get the job? (One reason I like to cater my presentation to each client rather than to have a generic website, is because I like to do too many different things, and this confuses prospective clients)

Lastly, don't show a ton of work. About 8 to twelve is the sweet spot. If they can't tell what you do after they've seen 10 pieces, it's because you are confusing them or your work is all over the place. You are only as good as your worst piece in a portfolio. Better to have four stunning pieces that knocks everyone out than to have those same pieces lost in portfolio with 20 other mediocre pieces. Back in the eighties when I first got out of college, I used to show something like 20 pieces and they were all over the place and of different quality. I knew I was good but, no one would hire me. then a friend gave me this advice and as a result I cut my portfolio down to my 4 best. I started to get jobs immediately because my portfolio went from mediocre to great.

This world wants to label you and put you into a cubby hole. That is how they identify you. If you have too many different genres and styles in your portfolio it confuses them. In my case, I can do painterly paintings, super tight realistic paintings, I can do impressionistic landscapes, cartoons, I can do traditional, and cg etc. But if I have a target client and I show them all of this, I've just made it harder to get a job. The client wants to know what he/she is going to get from you. remember their reputation is one the line. The client would much rather hire someone known for what they are looking for. For instance, if they want someone who does painterly work, they will hire an illustrator known for being painterly even if his painterly stuff is not as good as mine. If they want detailed realism, they will hire someone known for detailed realism, even if it isn't as good as mine. The reason is because if they give you an assignment, they want to know what they are going to get. Surprises suck in the commercial art industry. After you are working for them, then it's OK to show the other things you do and this can lead to doing work in your other styles (this is what usually happens to me). An exception is if you are looking to work at a company that you know will benefit from a generalist, like maybe a small games company. But this is something you need find out and decide to do when you are researching the company, before you go to the interview.

How do you find leads? Networking as I've described. Industry magazines, Company websites, friends, google, forums, etc. (if you see someone on cgtalk or concept art and their profile says they work at ubisoft, politely send them a pm asking who is in charge of the hiring, you have nothing to lose)

At the interview, be professional, look professional, and treat your work with respect. Don't just flop it on the table, it's your livelihood and should be treated like gold. An interview is a two-way thing, so make sure that you speak 50% of the time and that you listen 50% of the time. It's a balance. Have your story well rehearsed so that you can speak comfortably about you and your work, your experience, why you want to work doing this, your training, your work habits, your background, your workflow, your skills, how you can fit in their organization, what you can bring to the table etc. But also ask questions, remember that an interview is a two-way thing and you are also auditioning them. After all who wants to work for an *******. But more than that, asking questions and listening to the answers, and expressing a genuine interest in the company makes you a more human and less like a self-centered jerk. That is why it is good to do your research and come in knowing a little about who is interviewing you.

Learn mirroring and matching techniques. People hire or help people they like, and mirroring really works. It works with interviewers, it works with making friends, and heck it even works on a dance floor or at dinner with a person of the opposite sex, or same sex if that is your preference
http://www.exforsys.com/tutorials/n...techniques.html

Eye contact and a firm handshake is also very important. Practice this. Never bad mouth anyone at an interview, this makes you look petty., be positive and enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is infective, sour grapes are not. After the interview, add your thoughts to your spreadsheet on them. Whatever you've learned, the names of their kids or spouse, criticisms, advice, the work you showed, the reaction, etc. And most of all follow up. If they can't use you, make sure you haven't wasted your time by getting some leads out of them.

Most of all, take chances, try new things, and don't be afraid to feel uncomfortable. "Big risks come with big rewards!"

I'll leave it at that for now, I think I've already made this post too large, but I hope it all makes sense. LOL! I only meant to post a line or two, my apologies to those who know this stuff already
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Old 25-01-2011, 08:08 PM   #10
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paulius-st very interesting read, same problems i have ,i know no one in the 3d industry or even anyone else who really understands what i do around me ,ive only spoke to people on these forums over the last few weeks and my biz skills are not the best. and paullius-st please tell me wot images i should definitely remove from my portfolio, thanks again gotta have a think now
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Old 25-01-2011, 09:45 PM   #11
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I have read the same article that paulius posted here before on cgtalk. They are very good tips.
I myself find it hard to find clients at the moment, but I keep my motivation because I have just started out (don't expect to have a load of clients in the first 2 months or so).
Business skills are the most importants, The only fear I have at the moment (one that I should overcome somehow) is calling potential clients to ask them if they are interested in working together.

The fear... O the fear...
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Old 25-01-2011, 09:57 PM   #12
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one big difference and an issue he didn't speak about is pricing - it's a skill i guess as any other, but the most crucial one - you can get a ton of job and work for pennies, you can also get 1 job and get rich not that getting rich is what's all about, but it's your time and eventually your life that's at stake...

soon you realize that's it more profitable to work less and have a life, than to work hard and be a donkey

work smarter not harder i guess... with everything you do in life
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:12 AM   #13
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Well, i can tell u what i did to get my job as a 3d artist, basically i started scouting wich companies suited, in the netherlands there are some good companies, like guerrilla for example, but just like in anything, people tend to forget that even if ur a good basketball player, it doesnt mean u will reach the NBA, so i aimed a bit lower and found a company i thought i could handle skill wise at that point....i than checked what their most prominent works where, and started building my portfolio to cater to what they did, it took me about 6 months...but when i sent it in (a pdf with no more than 6 pieces of work, but 6 good ones, and at that point i wasn't skilled enough in anything compositing wise to make a true reel), i got a phonecall the day after and got moved from where i lived to amsterdam to work for them in 2 weeks flat.

so like in ur demoreel, u have lots of different images, some great, some not so great (no offence)...cut that down to the best, and maybe make different angles of those, to show them off a bit...also cut out the animation (the wall-e animation)...unless u want to become an animator, and in that case u will have to work hard on animation first.....

Quality over quantity is the key, and know ur enemy

And don't forget, even our relatively little company gets like 10 applications a week that i get to check most of (most of them are insultingly bad), so realize that more often than not ur not the only one applying, so make sure ur work stands out, make ur demo reel interesting to watch, just look at how Marek denko did his demoreel....granted he most likely has recourses u dont have (renderfarm etc).....but regardless u can still do some really cool stuff just using images.


maybe paul said all of this already, but yea...its a long read and i'm posting between renders so cant read it all :P

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Old 11-02-2011, 01:52 PM   #14
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paulius-st that was a really great read. I'm only a uni student and after reading what you have said it has really got me thinking about how I can improve etc. My really big worry is how do u get a job if u live in an area that doesn't have a big 3d industry?
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:07 AM   #15
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You are good enough to get a job in the industry.

Go for it!
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